Guests - If You want access to member only forums on FM. You will gain access only when you Sign-in or Sign-Up on Fishing Minnesota.

It's easy - LOOK UPPER right menu.

  • Announcements

    • Rick

      Members Only Fluid Forum View   08/08/2017

      Fluid forum view allows members only to get right to the meat of this community; the topics. You can toggle between your preferred forum view just below to the left on the main forum entrance. You will see three icons. Try them out and see what you prefer.   Fluid view allows you, if you are a signed up member, to see the newest topic posts in either all forums (select none or all) or in just your favorite forums (select the ones you want to see when you come to Fishing Minnesota). It keeps and in real time with respect to Topic posts and lets YOU SELECT YOUR FAVORITE FORUMS. It can make things fun and easy. This is especially true for less experienced visitors raised on social media. If you, as a members want more specific topics, you can even select a single forum to view. Let us take a look at fluid view in action. We will then break it down and explain how it works in more detail.   The video shows the topic list and the forum filter box. As you can see, it is easy to change the topic list by changing the selected forums. This view replaces the traditional list of categories and forums.   Of course, members only can change the view to better suit your way of browsing.   You will notice a “grid” option. We have moved the grid forum theme setting into the main forum settings. This makes it an option for members only to choose. This screenshot also shows the removal of the forum breadcrumb in fluid view mode. Fluid view remembers your last forum selection so you don’t lose your place when you go back to the listing. The benefit of this feature is easy to see. It removes a potential barrier of entry for members only. It puts the spotlight on topics themselves, and not the hierarchical forum structure. You as a member will enjoy viewing many forums at once and switching between them without leaving the page. We hope that fluid view, the new functionality is an asset that you enjoy .
Sign in to follow this  
cylinder

Question for oilman

Recommended Posts

cylinder

Do you (or anyone else) know of a study comparing the contaminants in the exhaust of synthetic oil vs standard oil in 2 strokes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
croixeyes

Question 2 is what are the differences in say 2stroke oil one is Mercury and the other is Citgo or something like the Fleetfarm brand.They both seem to have the same additives but prices are way different..WHATS UP...Sorry to piggyback on your thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
theoilman

A very good and relavant question. The last specific data I saw has been quite a few years ago. At that time it reported up to 75% reductions in emissions and water pollution as compared to standard petroleum based lubricants. In the past few years I have watched blast-off at several tournaments - boats running petroleum 2-stroke lubes leaving an oil slick while those running AMSOIL left a clean wake - this is not technical data, but field observation only. Similarly boats running AMSOIL run nearly smokeless while others on petroleum lubes leaving far more smoke. I have watched Champ boat races: Terry Rinker (AMSOIL sponsored, champion for the last 2 years) puts out far less smoke than over half the field (and I would be expect to find out that almost all are running some brand of synthetic).

These are all purely field observations, not documented standardized repeatable test procedure results. Since you bring it up, I would like to know also. I will attempt to find the complete data and get back with it when I find it.

I expect it may take several days to get an answer, please be patient.

It is possible that information I find out may not be appropriate (commercial or excessively long) that I may ask you to contact me privately. Too many of my past posts have been inappropriately commercial, I appologize about that, and will do my best to keep from that in the future.

To address the second post in this thread, the additive information on the labels is very generalized only without giving any specific data. The Base Stock information on the labels is very sketchy at best. If it doesn't say it is probably a very basic petroleum base stock. If it says it is a partial synthetic or blended product the government requirement to put this on the label is that it contain at least 20% synthetic, and it probably has little more than 20%. If it says it is synthetic it can still be many different things. In the US it can be a group 3 oil - that is, it is a super-refined petroleum based lubricant. Or it could be any of several different technologies of completely man-made synthetic base stocks. AMSOIL uses ester based (by chemically combining an alcohol and a fatty acid, both agricultural byproducts) synthetic base stocks in the 2-cycle lubricants. These are ashless that leave no carbon behind. All petroleum 2-stroke lubricants will leave ash and carbon.

All oil companies use their own proprietary blends and additives and the specific ingredients used to make up the additives will never be made available. They may use similar wording, but they are all different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cylinder

Thanks for the reply.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
theoilman

Hi Cylinder,

I have gotten answers to your question, but I am not happy with the information I have learned as I am sure you won't be very happy with the answers either. However, in this case there isn't anything that can be done about it. This will probably open the "proverbial can of worms" and generate controversial discussion, but it comes from the way the specs are written, or more accurately not written.

First of all, I contacted the Power Sports Group Technical Service Manager at AMSOIL, Inc. today. The answer I got from him was, "Specific data is not available as to the degree AMSOIL two-cycle oils affect the envionment."

Then I looked further: I looked up the NMMA Certification and testing procedures for 2-stroke oils. I read through their "Product Approval System" manual. The TCW-3 spec does not have a quantitative test for emissions - believe it or not, but I read through the manual, there is just nothing there about it. The following is from the NMMA general statements, but not the approval manual: "The long term objectives of the two cycle engine industry have been to reduce emissions which contain burnt and unburned oil that has passed through the engine, and to develop a quality of oil that reduces the mixture ratio to fuel while extending the life of the engine. That means significantly reduced emissions to satisfy EPA requirements, less warranty problems, and increased customer satisfaction due to engines lasting longer with less maintenance and overhauls."

Did you notice that they say it is the objective of the industry, and not necessarily of the oil?

This leads me to believe that the emissions testing is a function of the EPA and the engine manufacturers, regardless of the oil, its quality and effect on the test. However with 2-cycle engines it seems to me that the oil is a very large contributor to the emissions (much more so than with 4-cycle engines).

All of this leads to the lubricant manufactures using broad, general qualitative statements about the products, and since the NMMA doesn't have a procedure that addresses the emissions, there just isn't a standardized laboratory test procedure that can be used to quantitatively give specific test data. (No test, No results.)

I apologize about the political type of non-specific answer, but re-read my complete post. There just isn't any other way to answer the question.

If anyone has any better technical answer please add it, but from the information I have been able to find, I doubt if there really is.

Now to give the ultimate non-specific, qualitative (not quantitative) answer. Compare to the 2-cycle oils used by many ice fishermen in their augers. Many have previously AMSOIL, and a lot more started using AMSOIL in their air cooled 2-stroke augers this winter. I have read many comments posted in replies in quite a few different forum threads as well as several who have called me and e-mailed me privately: AMSOIL greatly reduces the smoke and emissions compared to the oils you previously used. Many now use their augers inside a closed house withoug being smoked out.

NOTE: Do NOT use AMSOIL Saber Professional (prod. code ATP) that you bought for your auger in your outboard. The Saber Professional is ONLY for pre-mix AIR cooled engines. The products for you outboard (water-cooled) are different products. Specific info, please e-mail me privately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
cylinder

I did a bit of looking around too--couldn't find a thing other than the claims of reduced emissions and less smoke using synthetic oils. I believe that. My concern was mostly about the relative toxicity of the exhaust particles. I'm sure that if synthetic exhaust had some particular hazard we'd be hearing about it in commercials and promotional materials for the traditional oils.

Thanks oilman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
theoilman

Cylinder, as to your last concerns - Of the oil itself, relative toxicity (before combustion, that is, if you spilled the oil directly on the water) of petroleum lubes, and most of the synthetics is going to be about the same - frown.gif bad!

However after combustion through a 2-stroke marine outboard things are going to be different. With AMSOIL's pre-mix (Saber Outboard) used at 100-1 mix ratio, it will produce 30% less emissions just due to there being less oil used. smile.gif

With both AMSOIL's pre-mix oil and injector oil you will get substantially less emissions due to the chemistry - with the full ester base lubricant you get complete combustion of the lubricant (leaving no ash or carbon) and hence reduced emissions and reduced toxicity. smile.gif This number however is back to the original statements - there is no test definition so there is no quantitative analysis system for it. (Note, this would similarly apply to some other synthetics, but you need to know what their base stock family is.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  



  • Posts

    • Bobber221
      Can anyone report on fishing on Rainy River this week?
    • Tony S
      Headed up this weekend for the first trip of the fall.  Thinking about fishing the lake with all the good reports from there, but has anybody been up to Clementson, Frontier or Birchdale  areas recently that could give a report?  Thanks.
    • Cliff Wagenbach
      VG, Good bite most days now! All minnows for me. jigs or lindys. Chubs, shiners, and pike suckers. Found walleyes from 8' to 40' yesterday. Cliff
    • MinnowBuckets
      Thanks for chiming in and sharing how the river has been treating you lately. They sure are fun to catch. I am hoping to get out again this weekend for some more smallie action. Hopefully they are still near where I was able to find them last weekend....
    • Coleman
      I fish pretty much exclusively above the Sartell dam.  I normally try to hit it 2-3 times per week.  Over the last 3 weeks, I thought the fishing was down right ridiculous(even with the crazy high water) at times, 12-20 fish in a hour or two before sunset.  I found them right up on the bank, and of course in slower moving water.  There are a few spots north of the dam that are great places for high water.  Some larger areas where the water can swirl around and create backwash.  In fact, I'll point my boat down right and put spot lock on, because the water is flowing back up river, and just cast parallel with the bank.  Most of the time I'll throw a Scatter rap, then when I see a fish chasing bait, I'll throw out a wacky rig.   I went out last weekend to a spot I've been hitting, and the fish have diminished big time.  Caught 6 in a couple hours.  Then I went out last night, and caught one walleye.   So, with that in mind I figured they had to of gone to the deeper rock piles.  And, sure enough, I caught 2 just before sunset, then I headed in.   If you have SI, just drive down or up river and look for large groups of rock piles.  Go up river from them, and try and do a controlled drift over the rocks.  I normally use a jig and a tube.  And there's no mistaken them when they hit.   Even a few eyes mixed in every once in a while.  
    • VermilionGold
      Headed up for one last weekend of open water fishing.  Anyone been out this week, how’s the bite?
    • bbfenatic
      Marcum keeps designing great new products...this is almost a must have for anyone with any Marcum unit. I ordered one for my LX-7, all the features plus a smaller/lighter battery that gives more hours in between charges.....swweeeet!    
    • HugeHogChaser
      $575   -quick release plate 
      -Minnkota power drive bow mount 
      -80lb thrust, 24V
      -60 inch shaft
      -built in transducer 
      -plug/cord to connect fish finder to trolling motor 
      -foot pedal 
      -autopilot 
      -INCLUDED: 2 12v interstate marine battery's new as of June 2017. Fully charged and stored on trickle charger after each use. I'll even throw in the battery tender trickle charger for free.
    • Moneyfinancial locgic
      We gives out both business and personal cash no collateral required. term cash of all amounts I think you have come to the right place. We offer Cash at low interest rate of 3%. Interested people should please contact us on For immediate respond application Contact us via email moneyfinancial.locgic@gmail.com  
    • Yellowstone
      Ditto. I switched to a 3 inch shell in #2 shot. I missed a few wood ducks this morning but got one teal. Not bad for the WMA I was hunting. 2 ducks would be great. 3-4 like you won the lottery. Saw plenty of action but it was fast moving wood ducks out of range. Geese never showed. And you can't shoot trumpeter swans! There were plenty of those. Let my boy sleep in this morning. Tomorrow we'll hit the more pressured lake. I saw at least one person setting up on it this morning on my drive to the WMA. The nice thing about that - when you're almost certain you'll be the only one there - is that you can roll in not long before shooting time if it doesn't take you long to set up.