looking for advice on training book or DVD

[beretta]

Hey guys, I am going to be getting my first lab in July. The female is going to be bred this next week and I'm getting kind of excited. My brother and dad have had labs but I have never had my own. I figured I better start doing my homework so I am looking for a book and or DVD to use as a guide for training. I mainly hunt waterfowl with some pheasants and grouse here and there. Just wondering what books or DVDs you guys prefer. My brother and my dad used "Water Dog" and their dogs (especially my brothers) are good dogs. I know that the amount and quality of time is more important than the instructions but I want to make the most out of my dog and my time. Thanks for any help you guys can offer me.

[Captain B.R.K]

beretta, glad you brought this topic up. I to am interested in finding out what books to pick up. Having a GSP on the way in a few months, it would be nice to know what resources are out there that have worked for you.

[lilman]

Anything by Wolters is pretty good.

[gspman]

For a pointing dog just doing upland birds, the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish dvd series by Perfection Kennels is very good. If you are into having your dog be "versatile" or into NAVHDA they might have some videos on that and I know NAVHDA has a book called the green book or something like that that people seem to recommend. I've never read Wolters pointing dog book but a lot of trainers advise against using that book. Don't remember why though. Can't speak for Wolters retriever and flusher books though.

[goose52]

For labs i read something by wolter about retrieving that from what i remember, was good. For gsp (i have a couple of vdd drathaars)i have found a book by joan bailey titled "how to help gun dogs train themselves" to be excellent. navda training manual is good. Last year i bought a vcr tape by a gal that runs mason creek kennels titled "hunt silent" that was excellent. I don't use a whistle much or a shock collar in the field hunting, so i liked her method.

[JDM]

If you want step by step instruction with drills for a finished retriever, try Mike Lardy's manuals and dvd's. He is online. Just do a search on his name. He is one of the best in the business. In my opinion, this is much more practical and modern information than what is in the Wolters books. You may also want to find a training group through a retriever club. If you are willing to throw birds for them, they will help you. Some pro's will as well. You will be amazed at what you can learn from experienced people.

[gonefishin11]

I read the Joan Bailey book as well and thought it was fantastic. It helped me an immense amount while training my first lab.

[Shack]

Wolters,Wolters and Wolters. I am a not so smart guy. I had no idea when I started training my dog. I was given some advice by a good friend about a couple of books "WATER DOG AND GUN DOG" I purchased Game dog the third book, it had upland birds in it. I read it two or three time. Easy reading with a great story as well. I tell ya I did not cry after reading, but came close. It reminds me of the old movie "were the red fern growns".It is a shame Richard is dead now, I would of been proud to see him in action at one of the shows he would go to. well enough of about this. I do promise if you are truly going to train your dog, you will not be unhappy after reading. You will probley thank me, just like I thanked the man who turned me on to these books. Have a Good day!

Richard A Wolters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[troyfideldy]

Hey Berretta, this is Troy from your Re:Lake Andrusia Fish post. I am having trouble private messaging you. Are you a student at BSU? I am looking for roommates for next year at BSU. Give me a call at 218-244-6292 or Email- [email protected].

[Harmonica Bear]

I'll 3rd the Joan Bailey book as well. I trained my first bird dog using Wolters methods. He was great. But the last couple I have been using Bailey's ideology and it has worked great. The dogs aren't machines by any means at 6 months (which Wolters methods can produce), but by 2 years they are rock solid.

[Captain B.R.K]

Harmonica Bear - what kind of dogs are you training with the Bailey book?

[cw642]

I think one of the best for both pointers and retrievers is George Hickox, he has a series for each. The king of the pointers trainers are the Smiths. All of Delmar Smith videos were just put to dvd this winter. His boys also have a good one for puppies. Personally over the years I have refined a combination of Hickox, Smiths, and a few others to train.

[Harmonica Bear]

Captain BRK, English Setters. The book is more geared toward the versatile hunting breeds; however the philosophies and methods can apply to any dog really. To her it’s all about conditioning (mental) to create a well rounded/inquisitive pup. In comparison to Wolters (who I like and respect mind you, so I am not trying to stir anything up), whose philosophy is: if the dog never knows or learns to do anything wrong then the dog it will always do it right. Bailey’s approach or attitude is quite different.

Let me put it this way, I went to a game farm last Sunday with my new pup (7 1/2 months)and his sister and a shorthair (2). Now I also took the pup with me grouse and pheasant hunting every weekend last fall, so the pup/dog has had exposure to guns, birds etc. Well on Sunday the dog did.... well, some might say horrible, but to me he did just fine. I let him, and coaxed him, to discover himself what the game is and how the game works. Instead of constant correction I spent the day enjoying the sight of young pup just trying to "figure it out" (with that attitude it was quite comical). Did he screw up? oh yeah? Did I expect him too? oh yeah. I am not saying I just let him run nilly-willy all over, but in a certain sense, I did (with some expected guidelines). Compare that to training my first dog (gsp), I never would have let that happen, not a chance. I would have had a stroke or heart attack in the first hour. Now did my first bird dog turn out ok? In my circle of friends he was legendary (which is all guy really needs). Have my other dogs turned ok? you betcha, but training IMO was a lot more enjoyable.

I also want to add one of the most important things: training the home-dog trainer "PATIENCE". Patience is a learned behavior and must also be practiced. It goes a long way...

I apologize for the long post.

HB

[Antler_Creek_Taxidermy]

Shackbash,

I've been looking at the Wolter series of books to train my new yellow lab, I'm wondering which book you would recommend for training him. I plan on training him to be able to retrieve ducks and also be able to find and flush a few pheasants. I seen you listed game dog as the book you used and I would like to know if this the book I should look into for this kind of training or not?

Thanks in advance

[Shack]

Game dog help's with waterfowl and upland birds. It is the only one of Wolters books that does this. You live so close, I would let you barrow my copy but the last person I barrowed it to moved to South Dakota and she never gave it back. She became a conservation officer. Her first name is Heather. Heather if your reading this, just putting you on the spot. I do not need book anyways. It truly is a great book. It is around $20 to $30. I bought my copy at the pet store in Elk River, across from Saxon Chevy or next to the old Back to the Fifties. It was cheapest there and they had it in stock. Good luck and let me know know what you think of book after you read it.

[germanshorthairs]

Just wanted to give my 2 cents on a great book for Pointers."The Ultimate guide to Bird Dog Training" Jerome b. Robinson. I followed the training suggested and have a great gsp to show for it. Very easy to read and understand. Quail callback pen is awesome and I would recommend if you have the space.

[gspman]

germanshorthairs,

Welcome aboard.

gspman

[Captain B.R.K]

I'm bringing this back to the top because I have want some feedback from those guys that recommended Joan Bailey's "How to Help Gun Dog's Train Themselves" book. I purchased it on Amazon and find it very different from the Wolters theory of training.

Bailey spends a lot of time conditioning your pup to new environments. In the back of the book is a informal schedule to use for your pup. But the sit command is not trained until the age of 2 and whoa and come are the first commands the dog learns!

For those that have the book, you didn't teach sit until the age 2?

Guys?!?

[cw642]

Captain, I've never read that book, but with some the focus is on hunting. The first thing many trainers like do is put a dog on birds. The basic idea is to make sure they are going to perform in the field first, then worry about house manors. A dog that behaves in the yard might never put food on the table. With establishing a training platform that the dog is used to, things like sit and lay down are very easy for the dog to learn. Basically you have to train the dog to learn.

(just currious but is the first command "kennel")

The other reason is that the sit command has become taboo among many pointer trainers. Pointing breeds are seldom taught sit for the fact that in the field you don't want a dog to sit on a point. Fact or fiction this has been preached for many many years. You are asking about this because you are getting a GSP and I think that book is geared twards Pointers. With a shothair (if you foul hunt)I would teach sit earlier for in a duck blind but NEVER use it in an upland setting. Don't do it before whoa and don't substitute whoa for sit. This is where you will find problems in the woods and fields later.

If you want check my profile and contact me.

[gspman]

Quote:

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But the sit command is not trained until the age of 2 and whoa and come are the first commands the dog learns!

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Whoa is the most important command a pointer will learn. Come is 2nd. One reason pro pointer trainers don't train sit right away is that it becomes the default behavior when pressure is put on the dog. When training a pointer to be steady to wing and shot you generally need to put some pressure on the dog because standing there through all the commotion (birds flushing, gun firing) goes against all it's natural instincts. When you put pressure on a dog it will sometimes go to it's default behavior. If you taught sit first then it will sometimes sit when you are steadying it. This is not good and a terrible breech of manners. A pointer sitting in the middle of a field while hunting just plain isn't good.

Having said that, if you are not planning on instilling that level of training (most don't) on your pointer then I wouldn't worry about sit as much.

Between the Bailey book and the Wolters book I'd encourage you to go with the Bailey book.

[goose52]

I've read Joan Bailey's book years ago and and liked her idea's. I got a new pup last summer , and went to scan the book, but couldn't find it. I'm sure i use some of her methods. I basically train the dog to do the things that i want out of them for the way i hunt. I teach sit and stay right after kennel and fueee (no) . i only use the whoa for training. don't like to talk in the field as it will spook birds.

[JSTARK]

Speed Train Your Own Bird Dog

by Larry Mueller

This is by far the best gun dog book I've ever read.

[cw642]

Quote:

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Speed Train Your Own Bird Dog

by Larry Mueller

This is by far the best gun dog book I've ever read.

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Do you like the picture on page 45 where he is holding the pup by the neck? It says to "pick him up give him a quick shake as you bark NO! at him." Then on the next page (another picture also) he tells you to do it more violently if the pup doesn't get it the first few times. On a scale from 1-10 of training books I would have a hard time even giving Mueller's book a 2. 10 being best.

CW

[Captain B.R.K]

I bought Joan Bailey's book a month ago and have been reading it over and over. Some good principles for the verstile dog. I don't understand why she doesn't teach the sit command until the dog is older- like 1-2 years old!?

[gspman]

The reason most likely is that many of the finished behaviors we want in a pointing dog require that it be standing. Many of these behaviors like steady to wing and shot go against the dogs basic instincts and require that you put some pressure on the dog to get the correct behavior. If you teach sit first then when you put pressure on the dog in training and it's confused or unsure of what you want it'll sit (which is definitely not what you want). It's like when you stand in front of your dog with a treat but don't give a command. It'll go through it's laundry list of things it knows trying to get the treat. Most likely it'll sit first, then lay, heel, speak, etc... until it gets the treat.

My guess is that's why she's saying to teach sit when the dog is older. Of course if you don't want your dog steady to wing and shot and all that other stuff then teaching sit earlier usually isn't that big of a deal.

[JSTARK]

I believe that method on page 45 is not intended to harm the pup just to show the pup you are the pack leader.

That method does not hurt the pup in the least. My pup has never whined when I've done this, this does not hurt the pup at all.

It shows them that you are in control and that they did something that they were not supposed to do.

I have used this method to enforce the "NO" command and it works wonders with my pup.

I don't see that harm in doing that to a pup at all, others could interpret that method as being cruel.

I've followed this book 100% the first 5 months of my puppy's life. The pup I have is a Brittany and is the best puppy I've ever had. I don't know if it's from doing everything in the book or the pup's genes. I can say that the book has shown me various training methods I can easily do in my own back yard here in the cities

I enjoy the book and it has a lot of great methods to speed train your dog.