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Dahitman44

steel vs lead

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MTP

Eyes, Federal premium wing shock, 1 3/8 5's or 6's, 1500fps, copper plated. If you prefer Nickel plated then the Fiochhi GPX Golden Pheasant are 1 3/8 at 1485, 5's or 6's.

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sdstatekid

Here is your study CodyDawg.

According to http://www.sdgfp.info/Wildlife/hunting/waterfowl/WoundingLosses.htm " Numerous U.S. and Canada research studies have been published involving trained observers that record the harvest efficiency of thousands of duck hunters in the field. These studies document wounding rates of more than 30 percent. Therefore, if you reconcile hunter and trained observer reports, the wounding rate on ducks is at least 25 percent. Wounding losses on geese are similar. This means that approximately 3.4 to 3.7 million ducks and geese go unretrieved each year in the U.S. and Canada combined. To put this into perspective, in South Dakota, during a good year, we will harvest about 300,000 ducks and 140,000 geese. The switch to non-toxic (steel) shot was put in effect because of the losses of about 2-million waterfowl annually, due to lead poisoning."

Hmmm. That's interesting, maybe it would be better if we could use lead.

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almostthere!

It is amazing what a little bit of lead will do to a whole civilzation. Look at the Romans and the Geeks.

It's hard to move away from a poisonous substance when that substance has been accepted for so long. Yes, I am talking about lead. We know that lead has killed millions of water fowls, not just through being shot but also through ingestion(sp.).

All birds take in pebbles and grits to aid digestion and a lead shot lying around just happens to look like a perfet pebble or grit.

I shoot steel shots all the time.

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gspman

Millions of Geeks may resent what you are implying. grin.gif

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BobT

Not to pose an opposition but to show how we can so easily slant statistics in our favor. The same document indicates that the wounding rate prior to the introduction of steel shot was about 18 percent. Using the 25 percent figure we can then determine that the number of wounded birds prior to the introduction of steel shot was typically 2.4 - 2.7 million and so add that to the 2 million lead poisonings and we can see that steel shot may have saved about 1 million birds annually.

Bob

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tealitup

Except Bob, what about other animals on the food chain who eat dead ducks. Bear, wolves, fox, coyote, bald eagles and other birds. They ingested these lead infested ducks and were also affected.

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gspman

There are three kinds of lies: lies, (Contact Us Please) lies, and statistics. - Benjamin Disraeli

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Jackpine Rob

Didja know that 74.3 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot?

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Fish Boogers

Page 43, Hunting and Trapping Regulations

Use of Lead Shot

- No person may take ducks, geese, mergansers, coots, or moorhens (gallinules) with lead shot or while having lead shot in possission.

- Lead shot MAY be used statewide for hunting other small game in accordance with firearms restrictions in this booklet, EXCEPT in Federal Lands: National Wildlife Refuges(NRW's) and Waterfowl Production Areas (WPA's). Also 8 restricted WMA's.

The following Wildlife Management Areas will have posted dove hunting fields (No Lead): Red Buffalo WMA, Lac Qui Parle WMA, Coteau Pit WMA, Hole-in-the-Mountain WMA, Two Rivers WMA, Tiedemann WMA, Whitewater WMA, and Carlos Avery WMA

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BobT

Don't know. What I was trying to point out is how sdstatekid left out an important piece of the document that slanted the data in his favor. Whether intentional or not I don't know but it was left out nonetheless.

Personally, despite the document, I'm not all that convinced that using steel shot has made much difference because the same tactic could have been used to create the document in question. That's why I pointed out that I don't want to argue an opposing view.

Similar to your question, tealitup, I've asked the same in an earlier post regarding us. How many humans have died or become ill due to lead poisoning while consuming game taken using lead shot or bullets?

Bob

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tealitup

Good point - but I think we are a little bigger then an eagle; and are whole diet does not consist of animals that may have lead in them.

I mean we all know lead is poison right?? We all know the dangers of our children eating lead paint. Why then would we not show consideration to the beings we harvest or at least those we wound.

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sdstatekid

I guess the next time i post a link that i think will help my position i should read the whole article. i did not intentionally leave out the part about the percent of birds that were wounded when you could use lead shot. I never read that part of the article. If i would have seen that i probably wouldn't have posted the link. Now that you have pointed that out to me I don't have any problems with why they make us use steel shot if those statistics are close to being correct. I still wonder though how many birds that i unintentionally wound now while using steel shot would have been in the bag instead of in the weeds a couple houndred yards away. I'm sure most of you have seen it before. they glide for a ways and then tumble. No it isn't because i am skyblasting either. I have the wonderful opportunity to hunt in south dakota whenever i want, i will not shoot ducks unless they are feet down in the decoys because most days i will get my limit being picky about the birds i shoot at and the shots I am taking. I wish i could afford the non toxics that have a density similar to lead but being a college kid the best i can afford is federal premium, which in fact has helped a little bit. I was shooting winchester xperts, maybe that was my problem, i don't know. I just hate seeing ducks or pheasants buckling from the shot then regaining themselves and gliding a few hundred yards before dropping.

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BobT

Here's the way I look at it. If the result is more or less a wash either way, I'd rather use the lead and put more on my plate than a scavenger's plate.

Bob

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Blaze

Amen, Bob. I used to always think any public land meant non-tox shot, and lead was only an option on private land. Glad I got that one cleared up! My kill percentages have always been far better with lead than steel. I think they should include dog biscuits with each box of steel shot to help keep the energy levels up for the dog that's you'll need to retrieve your birds! blush.gif Just kidding.

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almostthere!

Quote:

Here's the way I look at it. If the result is more or less a wash either way, I'd rather use the lead and put more on my plate than a scavenger's plate.

Bob


To each his own. Lead is a poison. Remember the kid who swallowed the lead charm from Nike? He died. That is how much lead is needed to kill a child. If you use OOO-buck shot and a child swallowed that buck shot, the child will most likely die; it not, the child will be very retarded.

Lead is actually a stew sweetener. The ancient Greeks use to drop lead balls into their stews and soups to sweeten them up. Then you have the rich Roman ladies using lead for their make-ups. Fertility among the nobles went down and doodooes like Nero were born to rule the empire.

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BobT

I wonder. Where does the lead come from in the first place and where does it end up when discharged from a shot shell or rifle?

Bob

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almostthere!

Lead comes from mother earth but mother earth do not roll them into beautiful little bite-size pebbles. When the lead falls on mother earth, the stay on mother earth, out in the open. Lead must not be all that bad, since the armed forces use them regularly: they are looking into non-toxic loads because they spent millions purging lead from their shooting ranges.

Uranium is also from mother earth, but do we leave them lying around, once we've mined them, for the masses.

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BobT

There are many poisonous plants around that are on the surface of mother earth that can be easily ingested. We could argue this all day but I just have a difficult time thinking that there are that many pellets lying on the surface. Try to pick a spot, even a well hunted area, and see how many lead shot pellets you can find lying on the ground among the rest of the grains of sand.

I have to admit that it does seem a bit far fetched but then, supposedly there is evidence of lead poisoning of loons and other water fowl. Imagine how easy it would be to find a lead pellet among the bottom silt in a duck pond. It's not like they are laying on top of a smooth solid table easily picked up. They are imbedded in silt, mud, decaying plant matter, rocks, gravel, and sand.

Bob

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Eric Wettschreck

Bob I've always wondered about that myself. I don't know if it dissolves quickly and maybe that's how some of the poisening happens???

I've also seen more cripples from steel then from lead. That makes me wonder if steel really is the answer. However, I'm not in charge of making any decisions what so ever so if I can't use lead everywhere I won't use lead anywhere. It's just easier for me.

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BobT

That makes sense. For me, I'm down to my last box of lead shot and I'm considering making the switch to all steel mostly because I'm not a very good wing shooter anyway and I think switching back and forth from lead to steel probably isn't the best idea. It seems that with the difference in shot velocity between lead and steel my timing could be thrown for a loop and that can't be helping me improve my kill percentage. I'm thinking I'm probably not good enough to adjust.

Bob

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BLACKJACK

Bob I just got back from SoDak, all I used was 2 3/4 two shot steel and I shot a LOT of pheasants!!! Yes I could use lead, yes it might be cheaper (but not much), but I don't want to screw up my swing and lead. Steel will kill if you take good shots, less than 35 yards. Yes lead might reach out a little farther, but how many cripples are those 'long shot lead' guys leaving? You know, the ones where the leg is hanging but the bird keeps on flying?

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CodyDawg

I am back now guys. I had to go out and shoot a bunch of birds last week....thankfully with lead shot. 46 roosters, 8 sharpies and 3 huns for the week. we lost a grand total of 2. I see somebody answered the question of which shells I use, Fed Premium 1 3/8s 5s are the ticket at 1500 fps. There was a group out by us from Alabama that was using 7 1/2 shot. According to a local that was with them, they crippled a lot, which just serves to reinforce the point that the correct ammo is critical.

Lead is a natural occurring substance found in our soil. It dissolves very slowly. I dont have time to read that study, but I will take a look at it.

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Ufatz

Lemme tell ya something fellas, once you shoot some Bismuth or Tungsten stuff you'll never go back to steel. Sure its expensive, but in todays world how many good shots do you get a day? a week? a season. Its all relative. I have hit birds that I would NOT have fired at with steel and the Bismuth smacks them so hard they bounce when I hit them. I know, I know, I've also hit some big ducks hard with steel in the past, but nothing like the new noc-toxics. Economize elsehere and shoot the good stuff. I clobbered a duck last week that nobody else was evening going to shoot at! And after 50+years of shooting I don't take silly sky busting shots either.

Take it for what its worth. My opinion of steel shot has not changed since day one. it is CRAP!

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BLACKJACK

Last week I had a cat prowling under my birdfeeder, I grabbed my shotgun and loaded it with what was in my vest - 2 steel - and when I paced off the distance from my deck to his carcass it was 42 yards!! Don't tell me steel doesn't do a good job of killing, if it will dust off a cat at 40 yards, it will kill birds also!!!

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Dotch

Steel deuces on stationary cats at 42 yards is one thing but steel deuces on gooses is another. grin.gif

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