Season limit

[TV BOY]

I guess that leads to the question ... how accurate are the numbers from the HIP certification. (those questions about how many ducks you shot the previous year)

Do guys inflate there numbers to impress those around as they buy there license. If so then the DNR thinks we are shooting too many.

I had a hard time staying under the possession limit the year I shot 42 ducks. I love duck, but I can't imaging having to eat over 1 duck a day to stay under your possession limit.

[wh1stler]

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Why should I and others who shoot a lot of birds have to pay more? Typically it is others like myself who hunt alot that put alot back into waterfowl. We're the guys out there in the off season working on habitat, supporting Delta etc... Now I'm going to get penalized if I shoot over 100 ducks?

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Like I said, borrow from the deer hunting model. For your regular license you get to shoot one deer. After that each additional deer costs additional dollars. So the guy who shoots 5 deer (for himself) pays more than the guy who shoots one.

I don't understand why it would be seen as a penalty. It is more of a pay to play type thing. Look at SD pheasants for another example. As a non-resident you can shoot 30 birds before you need to buy another license to go and shoot 30 more.

Wh1stler

[MattKeller]

TV BOY. Get creative. duck fajitas, casidillas, shredded bbq duck, kabobs, swiss duck/goose steak. The list goes on...

As for deer hunting, I hate deer hunting. They can do whatever they choose but as for ducks... I don't think that idea would ever fly. TOo much work for everyone involved and again, just more money we have to throw into the sport. They're all ready overcharging and misusing our license fees to begin with. The DNR doesn't need more cash until it can effectively spend what it has.

[Guest]

So with that proposal, would the possesion limit be the same or would it be 100? I guess I just dont understand your reasoning here. If anything I can see if fostering less restraint than the way it is now.

[lawdog]

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Why should I and others who shoot a lot of birds have to pay more? Typically it is others like myself who hunt alot that put alot back into waterfowl. We're the guys out there in the off season working on habitat, supporting Delta etc...

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WHY because you use the resource more. Its real simple...

As to you doing more, first of all, that is a baseless assumption and I know several people who do lots and don't hunt at all or hunt but not as hardcore as you. Secondly, if you are disproportionately using the resource, you SHOULD be doing more to help it, so even if your assumptions are correct, that's just the way it should be, just like you should pay more.

You just flat out don't get the point of this whole thread in my opinion... You sound like a walking advertisement for the season limits you rant against here.

[bigbucks]

wh1stler,

I understand your comments perfectly, I agree with them. I certainly don't know what the numbers would be, but I could see being able to get a tag for say 20 birds & then buy additional tags, but in reality, how easy would it be to take home a bunch of ducks without tagging & registering them? Pretty easy I'd say. The thing is with deer, they're big & you can't stick them in your pocket, so a CO at least has a chance to see some of them. I don't know what it would really accomplish.

As far as the meat hog thing goes. I guess I'm guilty of bringing up the term in this thread, but you'll notice I didn't define that or say I knew any hunters who were. I was just saying that in theory that the tags would be a way to control that, if it's a problem. I don't know how many too many ducks is, it was just a talking point. Seems like some people got pretty defensive for a pretty innocent comment.

I also don't necessarily think that people who don't shoot many ducks are necessarily lazy hunters. In my case at this point in life, that's a big reason I don't shoot many any more, & I'm fine with that. I'm more into bowhunting & don't care, but for a lot of people it's a lack of vacation time, family responsibilities, & money that make them not able to drive 200-300 miles & spend several days pursuing ducks. I realize that is mostly due to diminished habitat. That's part of the reason I'm more into bowhunting now. Deer are more adaptive & seem to be about anywhere, ducks aren't really that way. Deer don't really migrate.

The other thing I wanted to say, is if I hunt 2-3 times a year & say shoot 3-4 hens. Are you saying the guys that hunt like crazy & shoot 100 ducks, shot less hens than that? I agree they're percentage was most likely way, way lower, but who actually hurt the hen population more? If I hunt 3 times a season & decide to shoot whatever ducks come by, as long as they're within the legal limits, why does that make me a "slob hunter" anymore than the guy who shoots a 100 ducks, all within the legal limits? It's a difference of viewpoint & I'm not sure either of us is really right or wrong, certainly neither would be completely right or completely wrong.

[MattKeller]

Lawdog, "WHY because you use the resource more. Its real simple..."

The resources are there for our enjoyment. If you're not out using them, then don't get all huffy that I am.

"As to you doing more, first of all, that is a baseless assumption and I know several people who do lots and don't hunt at all or hunt but not as hardcore as you."

True, some guys who do not hunt at all support DU, but I would imagine the guys who put more time into hunting typically put more time into saving habitat.

"if you are disproportionately using the resource"

How do you figure that I am disproportionately (that's a big word) using the resource?

[870Express]

what about 1 hen limit a day

[wh1stler]

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So with that proposal, would the possesion limit be the same or would it be 100? I guess I just dont understand your reasoning here. If anything I can see if fostering less restraint than the way it is now.

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I don't have all the details worked out, but the possession limit could stay the same -- you are allowed to have only 12 ducks at once. Although you can have more than 12 tags at a time. After you have either eaten or given away some ducks you may use your additional tags.

Wh1stler

[wh1stler]

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I understand your comments perfectly, I agree with them. I certainly don't know what the numbers would be, but I could see being able to get a tag for say 20 birds & then buy additional tags, but in reality, how easy would it be to take home a bunch of ducks without tagging & registering them? Pretty easy I'd say. The thing is with deer, they're big & you can't stick them in your pocket, so a CO at least has a chance to see some of them. I don't know what it would really accomplish.

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This is really the fly in the ointment. It is not a very practical solution, especially if implemented by the government. It would be easy to sneak the ducks home without a tag (of course, it isn't all that hard to sneak deer home without a tag or registration -- don't ask). In many ways it would take a wholesale attitude change on the part of hunters to comply with this system.

Ideally the registration process would be so easy that it would be a minor bother. Maybe you stop into the ELS-equipped gas station and the cashier scans a bar code on the tag. Or maybe it is something you could even do from home?

At any rate this system would almost totally rely on the ethical behavior of hunters. If somebody really wants to break the law they would be more than able to do so with little fear of getting caught.

Wh1stler

[wh1stler]

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How do you figure that I am disproportionately (that's a big word) using the resource?

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Hmm...The average Minnesotan shoots 8 ducks per year. You shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 ducks this last year. Textbook definition.

Note, I didn't say it was a bad thing to be disproportionate. However,

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The resources are there for our enjoyment.

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we need to be good stewards of those resources as well. If you own more land than your neighbor do you not pay more taxes also? If you use more water, electricity, or gas than your neighbor do you not also pay more?

Part of good stewardship is recognizing the deleterious consequences of our actions and reacting in an appropriate, meaningful way to counterbalance them.

Wh1stler

[B. Amish]

just a quick question, if you give any game away, doesn't the person that you're giving it to have to have a license and all that?

if minnesota wants more ducks we should be protecting our local ducks more, instead of opening the season earlier and moving the opening time from noon to 9.

[lawdog]

NO if you give game to someone without a license they are fine as long as you give them something in writing with your name and license # on it indicating that you gift it to them.

The bigger issue is how do you count things like that in the possession limit. Say, for instance I give an entire posession limit to my neighbor on each side to stick in the freezer and then have my own limit in each side. Effectively I am now keep three posession limits on one license. I don't know the legality of that, but in my opinion they should still count in the limit.

I don't think the noon to 9 opener switch hurt ducks any. There was no scientific basis for that ridiculous rule that I've ever heard.

[bigbucks]

lawdog,

I agree on the earlier start on opening day doing virtually nothing to hurt the population, maybe a few more potholes got jumped that day... maybe...

I believe per the law if the people you gave the birds to don't have a license, that technically they are counted as part of your posession limit until they've eaten them. I'm not positive on that though. Again that's another enforcement nightmare for the CO's, about the only people he's likely to catch on that are his friends. I doubt they want to do that.

[Fowlguy]

How do you shot three posession limits in Mn, to give away?

[LABS4ME]

You can give away game to anyone. Technically you are to put your license or tag # on the packages of meat when sending are transporting them.

The tags you guys speak of wouldn't nessacarily have to be "registered". Make the law as such that if you are in possession of untagged birds in the blind or driving home etc. you will be fined X amount per bird. Have the tags on a serrated section of the license to be peeled off and an adhesive back to be peeled and wrapped around the leg. Hit em' hard if they are caught without using tags on birds shot and they will put them on and not try to get around the law. They will get a close enough count on the harvest by the amount of licenses sold. If a guy buys only 1 license he shot less than 12 ducks, if he bought multiple licenses X that by how many licenses he bought. Then correlate these #'s to those on your HIP info (you still provide this once a season when you purchase your stamp) and see if the #'s jive.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the "tag" option... just giving an idea to help with the logistics.

As far as the "lazy" hunter statement. I had the worst seaon of my life in (26 years of chasing ducks) this past season in Minnesota. I put in countless hundreds of hours in those years scouting out secluded duck spots and 1000's of hours hunting them. These spots are now devoid of ducks, and I'm talking in prime duck locales. One of the scary things I've noticed is the decrease in locals every year. The last couple years I've tried to find new areas but with a small business and a family, I don't have the time I had in my late teens and early twenties. Last season on two weekends I put on hundreds of miles in my truck and could've counted the ducks I scouted on my hands and toes. I walked into several beaver ponds, talked to trappers and hiked into lakes and waterfowl refuges. I literally never saw more than a half dozen ducks at a time. Matt you must be further west than I, as I put on many miles in and around the Cass lake to Blackduck to bemidji route and seen very few ducks. I'm glad some of you are still having successful seasons, there is little else that can match the thrill of hunting ducks, but the majority of hunters are seeing a major decline in birds raised and migrating through the state. I don't think anybody can argue that major concentrations still are going to be found and hunted... but twenty years ago the birds were more widespread and numerous. It is not all due to the Dakotas being "wet". We were hunting South Dakota back in the late 80's and early 90's when we still were hunting our spots in MN with success. We got birds in both states, but the degadation or elimination of small wetlands we used to hunt is currently happening in MN. I still have success in SoDak... we still put on the miles scouting to find the concentration of birds, but in reality there are birds almost every where. You'd be hard pressed to make those statements about MN. I have (had) the luxury of living just off the Mississippi, and I can honestly tell you there are very few birds migrationg down the river. We used to drool over the upcoming Halloween weekend and opener of deer hunting, as this like clock work was when the birds came through, they no longer come! The occassional day of decent hunting is still there, but hunters have diluted themselves into accepting this as duck hunting today. When we were young and dumb in High school with no adult mentor to teach us how to hunt ducks we'd go down to the river in our 14' boat and figure out decoy placements and calling and how to hunt. We'd harvest an average of 30-40 ducks apiece back then as "rough" as we were... I can just about guarantee that there were very few guys (except those that get out every day) who harvest 30-40 birds in the areas we hunted. I still feel overall the ducks and opportunities to hunt them is in a severe state of decline in this state. The posts on these forums over the last 3-5 years will corroberate this. Even on our "successful" outings, I can honestly say we see less birds in the sky than we did 5-10-20 years ago. Migration shift? Maybe-probably, why? We have water, are all our wetlands that bad? If so why? If the ducks are soley using the dakotas as a corridor, why? It's not because of more water... we have a lot of water too.... pressure? maybe. increased fall fishing pressure? maybe. Increased development? probably. poorer water quality? probably. intensive farming with a lack of upland nesting cover? probably. We need to get to the root of why the ducks are not using the state as they once did and fix that and not worry about "stock piling birds" with reduced limits to come back and breed. If we have the right habit they will come.

Good Luck!

Ken

[MattKeller]

"Hmm...The average Minnesotan shoots 8 ducks per year. You shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 ducks this last year. Textbook definition."

The average Minnesotan shoots 8 ducks a year but the average guy that I know and hunt with in MN shoots 60+. I'd say the guys that shoot 8 are disproportionately using the resource.

This is really a pointless argument. Where is it going?

"deleterious" Are you looking these words up in a thesaurus or something?

As long as I saw as many ducks/geese as I saw this year, I will continue to shoot as many as I can (legally) eat. You can try to go ahead and push your idea, I personally don't think anyone will give it a look.

[Guest]

You guys are still not touching on one of the most basic reasons we have not had a good flight in most of the state over the last few years...WEATHER

When was the last time Canada had a well timed storm or cold weather coupled with snow and NW winds out of the Dakotas.....it's been a while.

There has been nothing to push the birds our way in quite a few years now.

Yes, habitat is decling, but we also have not had the good NW storms we used to have either.

I've said it all in previous posts...the satilite tracking, personal contacts in Canada, etc, etc....there are LOTS of birds, we just never had the right conditions to make them move through.

[MattKeller]

"You guys are still not touching on one of the most basic reasons we have not had a good flight in most of the state over the last few years...WEATHER"

Tom. It was 17 below zero on deer opener. We were hunting ducks that day and for the previous week. I think that is about as good of weather as a guy could want.

I think weather played a role this year espicially for you guys down south. We had the birds here man, but we're quite a ways north of you.

[Mark Christianson]

17 below zero on deer opener??

Where were you? Hudson Bay?

[MattKeller]

Sorry, the post was supposed to say -17 last deer opener. That kind of weather moves ducks. The 2 weeks previous to that day were UNREAL. The migration was here in full force. Couldn't blame it on the weather that year except that it closed things up too early.

[bigbucks]

I'm with you on that one biglake. Opening morning I never even put gloves on, I'd love to say I'm that tough, but I'm really just a wuss that's determined to stay out there cold or not. It was about 25-30 here in Central MN anyway, really pretty nice by my standards.

[LABS4ME]

Tom... and as I've stated in past posts, we as MN hunters are now relying on everything lining up perfect in Canada to give us a week or two of shooting.... gone are the days where we shoot OUR birds raised in OUR state. As I've stated in the past posts also... the Dakotas are not complaining about the birds not coming down... they shoot their birds until more birds move in, it does get better with the northern migration, but they shoot birds all season, you just don't have that in MN. It is now a 2 day opener shoot and then pray for a migration. Even 10 years ago, a guy could go out to a well scouted out spot and rely on shooting birds mid-season, that just is not the case any longer. We no longer produce enough birds in the state to hold over till any type of migration starts, and when it comes though it generally is in the western half of the state for a very brief period. We see very few large flocks of mallards or bluebills along the river anymore. It is not all weather dependent either as a lot of birds (cans, bufflehead, widgeon,) are calander migrators. These birds are not coming through in any numbers to speak of. I have seen some big flocks working the border the last couple years, so I'm not saying there are NO birds, but something(s) is(are), besides weather is going on to greatly diminish the amount of birds using this state. I'm sure it is more complex than all our collective minds can figure out on this forum... but it is interesting to read each guys perspective.

Good Luck!

Ken

[honker23]

I think this problem is definately a multi-headed monster. Can we fix it in a year, NO.

Did it happen in a year, NO.

With a good population of ducks, I think weather and food conditions play the largest part for us "southern" boys shooting birds. This year I belive Canada had very little snow cover and large fields open for the birds all year. If the mallards have water and food they don't care if it blows 50 mph from the NW they will stay in Canada.

The idea regarding tags and yearly limits will never work for one main reason, enforcement of the law. The COs can't keep up the way it is and I don't see people honestly reporting all the birds and paying additional fees.

Per hunter MN is down the list in terms of harvesting birds. Why should we continue to miss out and decrease our already limited harvests, while we watch the southern states repeatedly kill limits of greenheads in a tee shirt.

We have decreased habitat and quality hunting land with EXTREME amounts of pressure. Water quality issues. Early openers that take late season hunts away. Weather that hasn't cooperated. Shifted flyways because of water in dakotas. Many others that I haven't listed. It all adds up to a few poor years overall, but lets not get down on the guys actually shooting birds, because anyone complaining about "meat hogs" would shoot limits if they could.

[hobbydog]

Joining this late....a lot of good points have been made but I will add a couple. First of all the local duck problem has to do with poor and declining resources but I think more of a problem is the relentless pressure. The Delorme atlas is the real culprit More people can find the out of the way places were guys like Labs4me say it perfectly....they did their homework but the ducks weren't there.....problem is a lot of others did the same thing and not only did they move ducks out of old "honey holes"....ducks can no longer find sanctuary. Adding to this....more people are hunting weekdays and traveling more to hunt ducks. I see this in my out oif the way spots. Place we never saw anyone, especially on weekdays....we are seeing them. I always ask....how did you find this place? either delorme or DNR online aerial photos and scouting.

I personally had a pretty good year as we average a little better than 4 ducks per person per day in my blind. I had to work a lot harder though and find a few new places.

Limits are not the problem, especially in MN. We are dependant on duck movement....not the big push but a succesion of cold fronts. We also need ag crops to cooperate. Not much corn got harvested in October. Then you had an incredible wet Manitoba and Sask with farmers unable to harvest small grains.....on top of a mild fall.

Pretty hard to get them to move off of this.

What we need is education. Skybusting kills more ducks after the fact than most imagine. Everyone sees it when they hunt yet no one admits it....how many here skybust?

And last but not least, HABITAT.....close the season and without habitat there will be no ducks. Get involved....show up at the rally in April.

[lumbertick]

You are right...habitat is key. We all know game hogs...and even if we reduce the limit to one...the game hogs will have a freezer full. We need to improve our habitat quality..especially in the southern half of the state. Not to take anything away from Matt, I know that he puts in the work, but the biggest reason that the ducks stay north is because they still have decent wetlands. even when the ducks do come through my neck of the woods they are never here for more than week. Nothing to eat, nowhere to rest...why should they.

lt

[hobbydog]

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We all know game hogs...and even if we reduce the limit to one...the game hogs will have a freezer full.

lt

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Define game hog a little better....I want to know if I am one.

[lumbertick]

The definition of a "game hog" is not something that Webster defines, if that's what your looking for. A game hog is something that we each define that is based on our own ethics and morals. You have to know yourself...I can't tell you what your definition is. In a nutshell for me it's anyone who takes more than they consume.

lt