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Dnr's future plan for walleye slot?


eyechoholic

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If you have a point why not come out one time and scream it?

If the DNR is fabricating data, why?  What do you think the DNR Is conspiring to do?

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I see all this blaming the DNR for the bad stuff that is happening at Mille Lacs. The only thing I blame the DNR for is not standing up to the local businesses. They have a spring meetings and every year it is the same old same old, year in and year out. The DNR suggest things to conserve the fish but the locals just want more and more. examples; circle hooks, banning livebait and many,many years ago the DNR suggested a 2 fish limit with a big slot,but the locals pushed hard for a 4 fish limit with a tight slot.The DNR gave them what they wanted and now I am supposed to feel bad for the local businesses because the lake is messed up? NOT

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5 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Wait a minute.  Folks are accusing the DNR and the bands of all sorts of nefarious conduct.   Who and what is the dishonesty and lack of full disclosure?    Maybe the DNR made a mistake using slots to control harvest but what exactly are you accusing folks of?    We have had people on this thread saying that netting took more fish than anglers.  Not true. 

Natives are not the problem.  Anglers are the problem.  Were slots the best choice to control harvest?  Were other choices acceptable to the local businesses and to anglers?  Well?

The GLIFWC seems to be in a position of the fox guarding the hen house when it comes to the counting of fish being caught in the nets.  The meetings between the GLIFWC and DNR have a lack of transparency.  And I am for the most part pro-Indian rights.  I have no problem with them having special privileges to fish and hunt.  I am not OK if they are abusing those privileges out of spite or greed and it is an open question for me as to whether or not that is happening.    

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6 hours ago, workin4bait said:

I see all this blaming the DNR for the bad stuff that is happening at Mille Lacs. The only thing I blame the DNR for is not standing up to the local businesses. They have a spring meetings and every year it is the same old same old, year in and year out. The DNR suggest things to conserve the fish but the locals just want more and more. examples; circle hooks, banning livebait and many,many years ago the DNR suggested a 2 fish limit with a big slot,but the locals pushed hard for a 4 fish limit with a tight slot.The DNR gave them what they wanted and now I am supposed to feel bad for the local businesses because the lake is messed up? NOT

Exactly. You can also throw in the fact that the resorts, guides, and launches have the job of trying to help their guests take as many fish as possible. That literally is their job. Then blame the netting because of the fish they take out of the lake. 

Serious question, is their anyone in the world more hypocritical than Steve Fellegy?

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9 hours ago, delcecchi said:

If you have a point why not come out one time and scream it?

If the DNR is fabricating data, why?  What do you think the DNR Is conspiring to do?

Here's my scream on this subject Del.

This little round ball that we all live on only has so much to give. It's now 2016 not 1837. The need for Subsistence fishing and hunting may have been needed back over 100 years ago. No one today is dying of starvation in the streets or on Reservations with all the means they have now acquired, programs and assistance that is available for all today.

It's not just a Red Man vs Racist Redneck White man issue. We seem to forget that all colors of man fish and hunt. Minnesota has a large population of Black and Asian people who all take part in the use of our limited natural resources as well. 

So, this issue really affects all man Red, White, Black, Asian and at some point we all need to do what is best for "Mother Earth" or Gods creation which ever you believe in. It will come down to at some point what is best for the resource and all users on this little ball.

So I said my piece you can now tear it apart about old pieces of paper that gives some rights and others not. What the He!! Isn't that all ready being done to us all in the White House with old pieces of paper that seem to mean nothing anymore anyway! :whistle:

I'm Out have fun!

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I agree that there generally is not a need for subsistence fishing. However, it could be argued, and very successfully, that sport fishing is also unnecessary.

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Seems to me if you want the natives to stop harvesting their share, you need to get the anglers to also stop taking their share.    Telling the bands not to harvest so there is more for you and me doesn't seem right to me. 

Do you have any evidence that the bands are cheating on their declared harvest quotas?   Personally I think it is more likely that anglers are fibbing about what is in their coolers when asked.  I don't see anything in DNR numbers about non slot fish harvested illegally, unless that is in the "hooking mortality" section. 

Oh, and here is a quote from the state legislative research service I found interesting.

http://www.leg.state.mn.us/lrl/issues/issues?issue=indian

"In an attempt to avoid a lengthy court battle, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) and the Mille Lacs Band worked together to reach a settlement agreement. That agreement would have required the band to withdraw their lawsuit, limit the Lake Mille Lacs walleye harvest to 24,000 pounds per year, and adhere to a band conservation code. In return, the state would give the band $8.6 million, 7,500 acres of land, and exclusive fishing rights on 4.5% of Lake Mille Lacs. The agreement also allowed traditional spear fishing and netting practices. During the 1993 session the Minnesota Legislature narrowly defeated the negotiated settlement. Legislators opposed to the settlement argued that the use of gill nets would decimate the walleye population and harm tourism."

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13 hours ago, delcecchi said:

If you have a point why not come out one time and scream it?

If the DNR is fabricating data, why?  What do you think the DNR Is conspiring to do?

I have not said that the MNDNR was fabricating data, I said that I believe that the data is flawed.

 

I will give you one very strong example of that. When the MNDNR did their predation study in an attempt to discover what was happening to the YOY Walleye, their study focused on only the three larger species of Northern Pike, Walleye Pike, and Small Mouth Bass.

They did not study hatch and YOY predation by Yellow Perch for one. Any die hard Perch hunter will tell you the number of YOY Walleye a nice Jumbo can spit out.

Nor did they study rough fish coming in after the spawn and vacuuming up eggs, for another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Seems to me if you want the natives to stop harvesting their share, you need to get the anglers to also stop taking their share.    Telling the bands not to harvest so there is more for you and me doesn't seem right to me. 

Do you have any evidence that the bands are cheating on their declared harvest quotas?   Personally I think it is more likely that anglers are fibbing about what is in their coolers when asked.  I don't see anything in DNR numbers about non slot fish harvested illegally, unless that is in the "hooking mortality" section. 

Oh, and here is a quote from the state legislative research service I found interesting.

http://www.leg.state.mn.us/lrl/issues/issues?issue=indian

"In an attempt to avoid a lengthy court battle, the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (DNR) and the Mille Lacs Band worked together to reach a settlement agreement. That agreement would have required the band to withdraw their lawsuit, limit the Lake Mille Lacs walleye harvest to 24,000 pounds per year, and adhere to a band conservation code. In return, the state would give the band $8.6 million, 7,500 acres of land, and exclusive fishing rights on 4.5% of Lake Mille Lacs. The agreement also allowed traditional spear fishing and netting practices. During the 1993 session the Minnesota Legislature narrowly defeated the negotiated settlement. Legislators opposed to the settlement argued that the use of gill nets would decimate the walleye population and harm tourism."

As was stated in an earlier post, another reason that particular "agreement" was shot down was because it only took care of the Mille Lacs band, It did nothing in the way of accounting for all the Bands coming over from Wi.  Overall the Mille Lacs Band has been a pretty decent steward of the resource. It has been the Wi. Bands that have loaded up year after year after year. And be assured they will go someplace this spring to get their fish.

 

On another note, it seems evident you have never been creel checked Del, you need to get out more. The creel clerk physically examines each of your fish, they measure each one, sometimes scale sample them, record each one, and ask you many questions relative to where you caught them, how you caught them, what was released, species, etc. I have had creel clerks hanging on the side of my boat on Vermillion for a half hour at a time measuring fish and collecting data, hard to "fib" in that scenario. You are not required to speak to them, that part is optional, but I have also been told they can have a warden on site in five minutes if they feel something is "fishy". 

The DNR has a factor for illegally harvested fish, be assured.  

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OK, your experience on Vermilion has been different than mine. 

As for illegally harvested fish, I would hope they take it into account.  I just didn't see it in the stories. 

As for a CO in 5 minutes on Vermilion, maybe on East end. 

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Dear Del ,Like I said in my previous posts I am not singling out Mille Lacs Lake. These issues that I speak of are state wide and cover ALL of the natural resources that Minnesota has to offer. I believe that the Indians have the right to net on the lake , I personally believe that it should be done in the same fashion as their ancestors but that is MY opinion. The people of Minnesota are having a hard time with the trust of our current DNR system. Warranted or not that is how we feel , I don't believe that they are 100 % forthcoming with accurate information. I also believe that sometimes they tell us what they think we want to hear. MY OPINION

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OK.  My opinion is that the DNR does the best it can, given the imperfect information it often has, to balance the many competing demands they face when managing resources. Those demands include politicians, various faction or groups of sportsmen, farmers, various other commercial interests, and the public at large.

The recent uproar over deer population and regulations is one example.  Mille Lacs walleye is another. 

And sometimes the just can't figure out what is going on or what to do, West end of Vermilion being an example.

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Interesting to hear about that kind of creel check, Weather.  I've never had anything like that anywhere I've fished.  I don't doubt it happens, but in my experiences, there's just someone sitting by a public access who asks us how many fish we caught.  They're not even game wardens--just employees.  I've got checked this year, and the guy didn't even get out of his truck. :)

I have been checked by game wardens and had all my fish measured, but that was just to make sure they were legal, and they didn't ask any questions, do any scale samples, record any info, ask where they were caught, etc.

Given all the WAG's that go into the harvest estimate, it would be interesting to see the margin of error. 

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 Stick: You have been creel checked at Mille Lacs, and nobody asked to see your fish ?  No wonder we have problems. 

 

From the Mille Lacs Messenger, 2/10/16 In an article by Vivian LaMoore. 

In order to estimate the total population of fish in the lake, both the DNR, and the GLIFWC put their heads together and compare data. The overall number is an "estimation based on data collected by creel surveys, and spring and fall test netting surveys. Both these tools carry a 20 to 30 percent margin of error" according to Tom Jones, DNR Treaty coordinator. "Yet the annual quotas are a definite number based off an estimated number, that carries a fairly large margin of error".

What could be more clear or accurate.  WOW

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I've been creel checked dozens of times, but I understood that term to mean "being asked by the guy/gal at the landing how many fish I caught."  I've never once been checked as thoroughly as you have been.  Never even been asked to show the fish I have.

Thank you for sharing the quote about the margin of error.  Good point, Del, about it being apples to oranges, but I'm guessing the margin of error on both "harvest" and "hooking mortality" is at least that big. I wonder what the margin of error is for *my* guess. :)

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Two different issues as you say, yes.  But the creel is an integral component of the overall estimate for the number of fish in the lake. At the of the day, neither of the data collection "systems" are accurate to within perhaps ? 80%.   They simply have no real idea. I'd like to see Stick show up at the meeting in Garrison tonight and attest to the fact that he has been "checked" but not really checked at all. There are lots of folks that maintain this may be the case, but the DNR would say otherwise.  Interesting. 

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I'd consider the drive if it wasn't 1) almost two hours and 2) on a week night.

You're absolutely right, though.  Given the importance and the inter-relationship of the creel "data," the harvest "data," and hooking mortality, it's important to ask where these numbers are coming from and how certain we are in their accuracy--or the lack thereof.

I'm curious to hear from others about the "creel check" they've experienced.  I was under the impression that the guy/gal at the landing had no authority whatsoever to compel someone to even speak to them, much less search boat/vehicle, examine fish, etc.   

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Creel clerks can not force you to cooperate.  I do not understand why, some wouldn't(short of being illegal). Especially if they actually care about the resource.

I have, at Eddy's landing, have a creel clerk enter my boat and live well to measure and document the fish.  Only after I gave permission.  At Cedar Creek, we have been surveyed everytime:/, and every fish measured.  

We also keep pretty good record of what we catch, we tell the truth about what we caught and released well.  Some I know, lie all the time, then talk about how wasteful the DNR is, yet they waste the creel clerks and DNR'S time.

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Interesting.  I've been fishing the lake many years and haven't even been asked for anything more than how many were caught and kept. 

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7 hours ago, Stick in Mud said:

  I was under the impression that the guy/gal at the landing had no authority whatsoever to compel someone to even speak to them, much less search boat/vehicle, examine fish, etc. 

That is the way it is here on URL. To make fishermen more willing to stop and share information the creel census is creel census ONLY.  The CO's take care of enforcement issues and creel census is information only. Around here there are a lot of fishermen that go out of their way to avoid creel census or drive right by.

I know nothing about the situation at Mille Lacs other then the articles I have read so this has been an interesting topic. Here at URL we went 7 years with no walleye harvest but at the time all walleye harvest was stopped we were at only 1 spawning walleye for each 40 acres of lake.

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Correct. The creel census is creel only, and it is strictly voluntary. There  is no enforcement possible, as they are simply clerks, gathering data.   These folks are generally college kids, interns, etc. with a few locals from the area. I have been checked on Mille Lacs many times in the last 15 years, both on the ice, and in the public landings. I have always been asked if my fish could be measured.

EVERY creel clerk I have ever encountered has approached me with their clipboard, and ruler clearly visible. This has been primarily on the south and southeast side, with a couple checks at Fishers Resort up north. A clerk practically lives there the first week of the season. They will approach you when you are pulling your boat, and ask if they can creel check. 

I have also driven into creel roadblocks on the ice. They put orange cones out, and wave you down. They are always courteous, well trained, cordial, and try to move the process along quickly. You can actually gather a good deal of useful info from them. I have also had clerks come to my shack on a snowmobile, but it's been a couple years.

I  have spent a week on Lake  Vermilion every summer for the last 30 years. I have been creel checked there in my boat MANY times, (east end) and they always measure and record all my fish (if I have any). I was checked there twice in 2015.  Same system as Mille Lacs, same drill, but Mille Lacs clerks do not come on the water, conditions generally do not allow.

Simply asking questions is nuts, if they don't see the fish, what the heck is the point. ??? 

How do they get any real data ??   

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On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 9:06 PM, kelly-p said:

That is the way it is here on URL. To make fishermen more willing to stop and share information the creel census is creel census ONLY.  The CO's take care of enforcement issues and creel census is information only. Around here there are a lot of fishermen that go out of their way to avoid creel census or drive right by.

I know nothing about the situation at Mille Lacs other then the articles I have read so this has been an interesting topic. Here at URL we went 7 years with no walleye harvest but at the time all walleye harvest was stopped we were at only 1 spawning walleye for each 40 acres of lake.

Holy crappies 1 spawning walleye for every 40 acres that's insane mille lacs is no where near that screwed up.  I typed in holy crap but my phone spell checked it to crappies so I left it seemed fitting for url

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From MNDNR site:

 

Creel surveys

What is a creel survey?

As fisheries managers we often rely on several tools to gather information on our fisheries. One of these tools is a creel, or angler survey. What a creel survey amounts to is having an individual interview anglers, measure fish, keep track of hours fished, count boats, fish houses, recreational craft, etc. When the data is analyzed we can get information about the effort, harvest, size distribution of several important species of fish. We can also get an idea of fishing quality and recreational pressure a lake has been subject to. Needless to say the creel survey is a valuable tool in the fisheries managers tool box.

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Dick Sternberg called this entire mess 15 years ago. He was considered by the DNR to be on the PERM team, but he nailed it. 

 

Thanks for posting Del.

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It was interesting to hear about the role of perch and how they link the various species together.

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Tony Roach was on KFAN this morning.  They skirted any concerns of netting, and focused on cannibalism, water clarity/invasive species, and recent Tullibee hatches.

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On 2/27/2016 at 5:16 AM, mjk said:

Tony Roach was on KFAN this morning.  They skirted any concerns of netting, and focused on cannibalism, water clarity/invasive species, and recent Tullibee hatches.

That's because netting is not the problem or the cause of the problem. Mille Lacs is not Red Lake.

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