Tribal Gill Nets- Video Link

[MuskieSlayer]

 Originally Posted By: Farmboy1

And I apologize if that comes off to sound like a attack on MuskieSlayer. It is not meant as such, and should not be construed as such.

Not at all. It's a public internet forum, no one should take anything said here personally.

The internet serious business.

[Fish Monger]

There is no reason that I will fish on Mille Lacs again - not after seeing this destruction and waste. I would rather fish the pond in Loring Park than fish a big pond which breeds such discriminatory practices of allowing certain people to net walleyes, while everybody else uses hook and line. Treaty or no treaty, like our Constitution, adapts when times and populations change. To give that treaty the same interpretation it had nearly 200 years ago is clearly a mistake, and therefore, illegal. I am boycotting more than the casinos in that area of the state.

[tunrevir]

Okay, just to stir the sediment a bit. I am all for the tribal gillnetting. The fishery has not had a bad year since it started and continues to put out multiple year classes of fish that are trophy in anyones book. The fishery is being closely scrutinized by the DNR and the tribal wardens which hopefully will limit some of the illegal doubletripping, keeping fish that are protercted by the slot and so forth. The fishing has not seemed to suffer in my book since the netting started years ago. Historically, the lake has boom and bust years and last year was one of those boom type seasons. The lake is different then upper red in that it has more deepwater habitat which can in turn support more fish of various sizes due to the forage base and the fact that the gillnets aren't typically set out deep. The perch are in great shape the walleyes are in great shape and if we remove all of the spawning biomass of walleyes out of the lake it will be a perch, crappie, big pike and muskie mecca. The tribes have the right to net, we have the priviledge to fish, lets not forget that. Sorry, had to stir the pot. Get ready for the opener and be safe out there folks!

Tunrevir~

[RiverBassGuy]

 Originally Posted By: tunrevir

The tribes have the right to net, we have the priviledge to fish, lets not forget that.

Not to retaliate, but this is the exact problem. As far as the comment about the walleyes always being in great shape, does anyone else remember fishing in 2002-2003? Granted the perch were overpopulated and that contributed to a "not so hungry" walleye population, but the walleyes have NOT always been in great shape. This attitude has continually had a negative impact on the lake: "Well the fishing was ok last year, so let them net hudreds of thousands of pounds. Who cares!"

I bet the resort owners love it when the slot gets limited to 2 inches and their business falls off the map...If sport fishermen had an extra 110,000 pounds of harvest available each year, the slot would be more open than it is now. The reason for continual successful seasons on Mille Lacs is completely due to the efforts of the MN DNR. Instead of tightly restricting fishermen, we need to level the playing field and review the treaty. It would be different if those doing the netting relied on the havest to survive like their ancestors did. Now it feeds casino goers.

[walleyeJoe]

i think the way that the just go about doing it is just vry disrespectful, and it shoed in the video... they didnt giv a rats (poor word usage) abou twhat anybody though as longas they got their free fish, the angler gets up, gets a cup of coffee, buys bait, pays for hundreds of dollars of gas, just to goet out of the house and do something they love regradless fish or not... i believe that if the native americans did want to net they should do it in the traditional ways that they were taught just like everyone else who enjoys the sport of fishing. tradition never changes, they should ave to go out in bark canoes and throw simple nets, or off shore, or wade out and spear, not go out and through there tuff where they heck they want and lave it where ever they want no matter what happens, i think they are starting to get a little to comfortable out there... this icident really proved it.

[chris63]

IMHO Just suppose that out of every 10 Female 'eyes that are caught or netted,(Assuming they are killed)2 of these said fish have the ability to produce off spring which can grow to say 30 inch(10 pounder or so).It is important that some of these large females go back to the resource unharmed or at the very least attempted to be put back.JMTC c63

[HGH Fishing.]

This situation could have been avoided when the Indian's were ready to accept 15 million and the rights to spear only some 10 years back. But the group PERM and individuals like Bud Grant got involved and convinced the state to fight the Indian's from taking any fish and paying them any money. So the state went to court and the Indian's won and they can do almost anything they want. And that cost us 15 million anyway. We should of left well enough alone.

[ANYFISH]

HGH, carefull I made a comment very simular a while back and it is not taken very well.

I understand the disstain towards gillnetting, but they are taking 122,000 lbs and we are allowed 300,000 + lbs, I have a hard time understanding how the bands are destroying the lake. Yes some are of prime spawning size, but we are releasing all of the other spawning sized fish, and if you all have fish here lately you know there is a lot of spawners (20-27"), maybe too many and not enough smaller fish. Or are we upset that we are regulated the way we are.

[jtm]

you ask me, all this video does is add fuel to the fire. I dont believe there will ever be a good relationship with the natives. And I can see why. What they are doing is just plain wrong and disrespectfull. Makes me sick

[Hills]

Tunrevir-Don't you think the privilegged netters are keeping everything they net? Perch, Walleyes, Nothern, Musky? I am a minority in MN just like the Indians only I am Jewish. Does this give me a right to go take fortunes from the Germans because discrimination took place in my families history? I think not. At some point we need to call it even and start living as equals.

[lucky_nuggets]

 Originally Posted By: HGH Fishing.

So the state went to court and the Indian's won and they can do almost anything they want.

I understand your overall point but if they could do whatever they want, why is the tribal over all take less than the anglers?

[DHanson]

 Originally Posted By: Hills

Tunrevir-Don't you think the privilegged netters are keeping everything they net? Perch, Walleyes, Nothern, Musky? I am a minority in MN just like the Indians only I am Jewish. Does this give me a right to go take fortunes from the Germans because discrimination took place in my families history? I think not. At some point we need to call it even and start living as equals.

Well put Hills.

[lucky_nuggets]

 Originally Posted By: Hills

At some point we need to call it even and start living as equals.

I couldn't agree more. 215,000 lbs for "sport" anglers and 215,000 lbs for tribal members. Now thats equality.

[germanshorthairs]

Less tribal members causes them to take less than anglers. But actually that may not be the case because when they angle they do not have to follow the rules as a non band member does. Also there are many lakes besides mille lacs that are in the ceded treaty and they can take as many fish as they want. I talked to a band member who fishes many of the lakes in the ceded treaty and takes what he catches. I would never buy hunting or lake property in that territory because of the discrimination between a band member and a non member(me). The more I read the more frustrated I get. Has anyone ever seen a band member get in trouble(in the Outdoor News??)

[BowTech03]

Riverbassguy- tha mille lacs band has been nettin "pre-spawn" Walleyes since the treaty was signed by our forefathers back in the 1800's(and before this

I dont think that the men that signed the treaty were using 18ft boats w/ 75 horse motors, more like a 12 ft canoe....... little bit of a difference if you ask me.

[lucky_nuggets]

 Originally Posted By: germanshorthairs

Less tribal members causes them to take less than anglers.

Ok, I follow now, it is equal then.

[fishgutz77]

All these seperate nations with in the Nation, that just seems

unamerican to me.

when will the people that make the laws get over their feeling that the United States or the State of Minnesota owes anybody any thing other than the freedoms enjoyed by all americans?

Can you say bad guilt complex!

All Americans of this Nation at some point have to bend to the changing culture and modern law that keeps order.

try this kind of Social engineering in any other country and see how far you get.

Until the current law making body starts to do some serious house cleaning of old laws and bills that no longer fit the times all sorts of special interest groups like the tribes will feed on the courts inablility and unwillingness to make people start to assimilate.

reserve the right to cultural heritage like the Irish,German and Nordic imigrants have done here. But please Don't insult me with this kind of cultural hertiage nonsense, this is not what you where doing in 1837.

Sorry for the rant I'm not frustrated with the tribe I've just had it with our shortsighted courts.

[RiverBassGuy]

With the constitution being ammended each year, it's hard to believe this agreement is still valid. Times have changed and it's time our courts get this straight.

[KidWalleye]

Lucky_nuggets. Your response to we all should be equal says it all. "I couldn't agree more. 215,000 lbs for"sport" anglers and 215,000 lbs for tribal members. Now thats equality" is ridiculous. Equality to me doesn't mean, different groups of people getting the same amount of fish. To me it means every man, woman and child getting the same amount of fish. Your response essentially says that you do not believe in equality. Also it is our right to question the actions of our forfathers. ie. the treaty.

This was by no means a personal attack on you. I just want you to clarify what equality means to you so we can all understand where you're coming from.

[HAppnhook]

My original point is that we are just as destructive to the resource as the nets. Do the tubs of netted fish look any different than the tubs of tournament fish that can't be returned? How many fish are wasted as a result of netting vs, over fishing? or for that matter letting our fish sit in the freezer and wasting away. If you decide to ban the use of modern nets and boats, what about banning high teck gps/sonars, large boats, large motors and the like for all fisherman to give the fish a fair chance. Do you think you could catch 300,000+lbs of fish without these tools??? We were greedy when we took the land from the tribes, Bud Grant and his boys got greedy about fishing rights and now it sounds like we want even more. Talk about invasive species. See a pattern here?

Its one thing to voice an opinion but a completely different thing to propose some solutions, say barbless hooks in the heat of summer, or exploring new lakes when the water temp is high. Try turning off the GPS, Do things different when the fish are most vulnerable, And quit thinking that if you dont catch a bazillion fish every time you go out, you are not successful, you went fishing. This isn't sport, its an activity. If we are only concerned with, what can "I" TAKE, then we have lost the essence of our "heritage", or, maybe that is our heritage........

One last thing, its time to clean house in our states govenrment and get some fiscally responsible "professionals" in there! A $975 Million deficit is not ok for a group that continually talks about a balanced budget.........

[walleyewild]

Happnhook, you can't make fish bite on a hook,it doesn't matter if you have the fastest boat, best electronics or hottest lure, but fish will always swim and if you put a gill net in an area that has a reputation of having a large fish population tnen you end up with full gill nets.

I do agree that the native americans were wronged by the white settlers to this country, I am only 3 generations removed from Poland and my grandfather worked very hard for everything he earned for my dad and me, other immigrents were treated poorly when they came to this country as well but do you see the Irish Americans sueing the government for rights that they lost, or Jewish Americans or German Americans...

What I am saying is that gill nets should be banned for all uses worldwide, they are not selective harvest.

I have read both treaty's 1837 and 1855 and it is at the will of the president that these rights are granted, nowhere in there did it say that the court system can make a decision on what rights would or would not be granted, Period.

When the treaty right's case was being fought I was repairing copiers and worked Downtown Mpls and happened to have the PERM guy's as one of my accounts and would be in there at least once a month to repair the copier. There was some very intelligent people well versed in legal rights issue's giving their time to help stop the netting rights that the tribe was asking for. The treaty states "hunting, fishing and gathering for subsistence".

120,000 pounds does not fall into the catagory of "for subsistance" in my book, sounds more like commercial fishing to me!!!!

IMO The court system blew this one, the big money won! And all who supported the casino's at that time helped the cause to allow gill nets...

If the case allowed the bands to use ten lines per person and had to fish only during open season and had to return all fish outside the slot I don't think there would be nearly as much discussion on this topic as there is.

We all need to be good stewards of our resources. Or we won't have any resources to enjoy.

WW

[HAppnhook]

I am not arguing the politics, I am making a point that we exploit a resource as much as anyone else and no finger pointing should be made. The reason the fish are biting the hook is because they are hungry. The reason we pile onto that lake is because it hasn't taken a lot of effort to catch fish up there, its easy. And we target spawning areas as well because the fish are there and they are hungry. No Different. In the case of a drifting net, more fish potentially could be killed, a mistake, in the case of one that does what it is supposed to do, it targets a specific sized fish, the head goes through, the body doesn't. The tribal group is doing what they are allowed to do, they dont complain. We are doing what we are allowed to do but we still complain. WHat is that? The reason people are complaining is because of management, and the "limitations" that management is placing upon our group to protect us from ourselves. If there were no rules on the lake, and the tribes could not fish the lake, it would be virtually destroyed because we have our "rights", and our greed.

We have no right to point the finger until we ourselves can control our own waste, and that takes a conscious effort to look at ourselves. Its just like we have no right to point the finger at opec when we have far greater reserves that we have let our politicians ban us from producing. Maybe they are protecting us from ourselves.....

[palisade1kid]

Instead of going onto my own diatribe I'll just quote Farmboy.

Very well stated.

In closing all men are not created equal ...it depends on who you know and how much money do you have.

 Originally Posted By: Farmboy1

Well, there are a lot of different opinions on here, so I will voice mine.

1. If you do some research you will find the majority of the netting is done by the WI bands. They do not have any ties to the lake, and do not rely on it for their livelyhood as do many if not most of the Mille Lacs band. The ML Band does not want to see the lake ruined any more then the rest of us. The WI, bands.....well, you decide. The reports I have read state the lost nets are from WI tribes.

2. Native Americans (if you want to call people who migrated here the same as the rest of us, just earlier, native), are not the problem here. People with blatant disrespect for the resource are. And Stupidity does not follow racial prejudice. I feel anyone who would do harm to a fishery claiming any reason deserve to go to teh gauntlet. If you disagree with this, look around, there are some pictures posted online of a couple guys who in about 2 hours located 9 of the lost nets. Were the people who set them out trying to find them as all the media sources stated????? It was not that hard IF THEY TRIED. Again, Disrespect for the resource.

3. If you are truely care about this fishery, do something. Write your Senators, Newspapers, President, anyone. But to come on a fishing website and complain to fisherman over an issue does not get "Average Joe" to understand.

4. Do some research on the treaty and you will understand it is written in a different time and place. There are numerous items you may read and shake your head at that I will not go into here for fear of being called a racist.

5. Taken from the 1837 Treaty, Article 5 The privilege of hunting, fishing, and gathering the wild rice, upon the lands, the rivers and the lakes included in the territory ceded, is guaranteed to the Indians, DURING THE PLEASURE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. This to me does not mean they can do this forever, but only when dictated (or better stated, allowed) by the president.

6. There are lots of people who say "we" kill many fish by simple catch and release. This is not an apples to apples comparison since fish dying from heat exhaustion is not the same as being killed by suffocation slowly over the course of a few days in a net. These fish also are not being killed when they are most vulnerable, the spawn. I think the midseason floaters could also be minimized if the slot limits were not so tight allowing anglers to make use of those fish, but that is another arguement completly.

7. The main disagreement with the whole thing however is that one group of people are allowed to do something that another group of people are not. Could I set up camp at a public access for days at a time? Use a backhoe to remove ice from a PUBLIC access causing damage. Keep as many fish as I can during spawn? Leave a killing device in the water for a period of time when every weather reporter in the state told you the wind was going to blow the ice on you? This is all disrespect.

I think I have said enough about this, and will problably get nixed for writing all this, but misuse of a resource by anyone is wrong. I firmly believe this is casued by a small group of indians doing the majority of the damage, and the people who are doing it right and for the right reasons are simply not heard from, but why does it have to be that way. I would love to hear someone from the ML band come out and say it is wrong, but am not going to hold my breath. You are also not going to find me in a tribal run casino in this lifetime because this is just helping the problem.

The indians I know are a very respectful people, with a heritage I could only hope to have, but the bad get the press, and the good go unheard from.

[dws]

The last time the Constitution was amended was in 1972 with the ratification of the 27th Amendment and it has to do with congressional compensation.

[rodmaker]

Makes a guy sick watching that. i wish this didn't get put out here!!!!

[fishgutz77]

Kid, wouldn't equality in most cases mean the same and equal access to any resource, not just walleyes or trees or any natural resource?

This resource impacts area's outside of the indian nations boundries, so why would the state allow such nonsense?

Walleyes and game are a moving living resource that are managed by the state, with limits and season's. Not to mention the methods that can be used to harvest.

The courts have ruled they will give unequal access to a resource by a special interest group because it is thier cultural right. That kind of reasoning will come back to huant them and us. Who else will be able to use this logic in the courts?

Had the courts ruled the other way would we have seen closed boarders to the tribal Nation? The casinos would have gone belly up in no time flat.

Equal opportunity to a resource under the same rules and restrictions. How would they feel if five hundred non-tribal people showed up to spear and net the same resource? We have the power at the legislative level to make that a reality. allthough not very probable.

[jnorm1984]

Well this is a fun topic to argue about, but I have feeling no opions are going to be swayed one way or another

[palisade1kid]

 Originally Posted By: jnorm1984

Well this is a fun topic to argue about, but I have feeling no opions are going to be swayed one way or another

it's how most things go online...can't fight the dragon and expect to win.

[minniwinni91]

I understand that it's part of the treaty of 1856 but I mean thats 150 years ago new nations have bee born since then. I think it's time to move on if they want fish they should have to catch them like everyone else.

[Charley]

This topic was gone over in gill net under the ice .

Refer to post their. Intil this goes before a court somewhere or sometime. It's the way it is! So lets go fishing and enjoy what we do have.