Tribal Gill Nets- Video Link

[avrg.joe]

"IF",,, and ONLY "IF",, you want this to stop, BOYCOTT ALL casinos that participate in netting. If you patronize these casinos, "YOU" are part of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RiverBassGuy]

 Originally Posted By: avrg.joe

"IF",,, and ONLY "IF",, you want this to stop, BOYCOTT ALL casinos that participate in netting. If you patronize these casinos, "YOU" are part of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are correct and I have never stepped foot inside Grand casino. (or any other for that matter) I don't understand how people can complain about the netting, then walk in and eat walleye from the casino buffet. please....

[champion]

guys and gals,

i have watched this nonsense foe years. as a lalandowner and fisherman i have always been against this. recently i watched those net go away with the ice, gottaa say i have and will get sick each time i see them stting nets and retrieving then...my wife gave up on me bssiing about this, although she is entrirely discouraged, you should live here!!!! just gotta say, i got sick again..toilet boil sucks vs the lake, lower my taxes, please mr bush, sign off soon...its the least you could do, a devotate republican

[champion]

i would like to just carry on, put the dock in today, no nets, no response from the white house, maybe caroliona is on his mind,

can a fishing crew really enjoy fishingh with this matter, maybe we shold just fish for crappies, i guess i would have a short season. ever think abou stocking mille lacs, maybe after some unjust fishing the last years, dead fish floating, indians, fisherman taking way....too many fish oversize, i see it all the time and am just tired of it, what ever happened to catching some fish, eating, and going to fish again. we do not need to pound this fishery, oh yea the owners on the lake, go ahead and take what you want, [PoorWordUsage]... i am tired of all folks, neighbors, etc.

[champion]

p.s. i will spend money at the casino when they sponsor my kids hockey team, and builod a horse track around the lake. now that would be a great race, the mille lacs 100 on NBC, so gotta pick the tri fecta so MN gets some money. owe ya, gotta go pay 3.53 for gas to fill up the wifes burb.....

[jnorm1984]

Riverbassguy- tha mille lacs band has been nettin "pre-spawn" Walleyes since the treaty was signed by our forefathers back in the 1800's(and before this), we have seen many ups and downs since then, and i think the MNDNR and GLIFWC are doing a fine job keepng this fishey intact... A lil fun fact for ya all stated by the brained area fisheries manager, " Mille Lacs lake has more natural walleye reproduction than the Minnesota DNR stocks in all of Minnesota's lakes." Think about this, thats a lot of eyes...This is really a non issue, think about the ethics of netting...............Then think about the ethics of releasing a 26" fish in august thats gona die after you release it(I understand this is the law)....Both of these fish(ones netted or caught in august) are gona die(more than likely) weather you catch net them in the spring or catch them in the summer.. Yeah if you catch them in the summer they have already spawned out, but neither of them will have a chance the following year...I guess im not done with this topic..........

[jnorm1984]

Wow champion, u don't make much sense on ur last 3 posts...

[broodwich]

RiverBassGuy: How do you really feel about natives? Clearly a racist... I only say that because if you can judge than I will as well... I can only hang my head in shame because you will, if not already procreated and passed your ridiculous ideas on to your children... What if I and everyone in the state decided to discriminate against anyone born or who had ties to Elk River (according to your location). No matter what you did or how good your intentions were we would hate you only because of where you're from... Sounds absolutely absurd doesn't it?

I take great offense to what many have said on here (not only on this thread but many others)... My wife is part Native American but I am not, so when you make poor comments about Native Americans you are putting down my innocent children... I will not stand for such sickening behavior... I only hope others will follow...

[walleyewild]

How long has it been sinse the DNR and Ontatio MNR closed netting on Lake of the woods, late 70's early 80's. how many years did it take for LOW to recover?

Look at what happened to Red lake! Now what caused all of the walleye decline in both of those bodies of water? Gill Nets!

My tax dollars pay for restocking those lakes. If the band wants to take 100,000 pounds of fish then they should follow the example of the red lake band and use hook and line. I concider myself to be a sportsman and concervationalist. I keep walleye's between 15 and 18" only, very rarely do I keep a limit, I don't have children but want others children to have an opportunity to be able to go to these lakes and be able to catch walleye's.

I stand by my earlier statement. Gill nets are NOT selective harvest.

There is going to be some hooking mortality as long as people use barbed hooks, want to hold and photograph those fish...

This post was about netting prespawn walleye's, that in and of itself is what I see. There is a reason that we have closed seasons in fishing. Should we be able to fish for walleye's year round? If we could then our DNR would be out of money for restocking programs in short order. It makes me mad to see the fish being taken, Is there a different way to harvest these fish? I'm not sure, but if we are to sustain the great fishery of Mille Lacs then a diferent way of harvest needs to be found that only is able to take the 15 to 18" fish.

This is just my opinion.

Thank you SWMuskie for posting the video.

[tedl]

 Originally Posted By: avrg.joe

"IF",,, and ONLY "IF",, you want this to stop, BOYCOTT ALL casinos that participate in netting. If you patronize these casinos, "YOU" are part of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The casinos bring jobs to these areas. I don't believe all the blackjack dealers, kitchen staff, and golf course workers.......are out there gill netting. I 'm sure you would not like to see alot of good people lose there jobs.

[RiverBassGuy]

My problem is with the Mille Lacs band of Ojibwe who disable light posts on public accesses, cut winch straps at public accesses, spray paint the exterior of private cabins, chase the private owners out of the area, use Ranger boats in aiding their "netting," I do not have kids, but grew up fishing Mille Lacs with people who are fed up with the continuous [PoorWordUsage]. To play into your poor example, If people from my town (elk river) were annually doing the things mentioned above, I would be sour with elk river people too. Having lived there for 20 years, I'm yet to encounter a group of people who have manipulated an age old treaty that negatively impacts a fishery like Mille lacs. Again, nothing against Native Americans in general. I live in Duluth during the school year, right next to the reservation, and have never had a single problem.

[lucky_nuggets]

Guys, you are arguing against hatred and ignorance. If they were serious about facts they would know the GLIFWC has a restocking program. They would know both the state and tribe TOGETHER set limits. Most arguments here are visceral and pointless. That lake has been netted for many years and some are trying to tell you that the result is poor fishing. Is it? is the fishing really that bad out there? They DNR sets limits for a reason and they seem to be working. And no, the Casino is not running a netting operation. Many of the walleye you see on a menu is from Canadian waters anyway. If you are curious, ask a restaurant the next time you are at one.

[SWMuskeye]

I think many of you are missing my main point here. I find it incredibly ignorant that the DNR designates walleye rearing ponds for the sole purpose using these resources to raise fry & fingerlings on metro put & take fisheries- or to supplement fisheries with varied reproductive success- i.e. Waconia.

The tribes will continue their right to gillnetting-even though I find it to be a bunch of [PoorWordUsage]. But one thing that can't be overlooked is that these wasted large walleyes' eggs are leaving a large, population-decimating footprint on this lake.

Is there not a way that we could save these eggs- put them in a hatchery, and restock them as fingerlings or fry? This will help lessen the blow from loosing the broodstock fish, and will even offer a lower mortality rate once the eggs are fry or fingerlings and stocked.

I agree with many of the posts that the biggest problem I have with the gillnets is that I deem it unethical. I just don't want Mille Lacs to turn into the way Red was years ago.

I also like some people's points that they should be doing their netting post spawn. Most of the large females will have retreated to deeper water for 4-10 days to recuperate after the spawn, and the spawning grounds will be predominantly males. The result? More broodstock females that are less likely to end up in nets to replenish the fishery year-after year and more "eater" males that would be taken by the tribes outside of the spawning grounds.

[Black_Bay]

 Originally Posted By: SWMuskeye

Is there not a way that we could save these eggs- put them in a hatchery, and restock them as fingerlings or fry? This will help lessen the blow from loosing the broodstock fish, and will even offer a lower mortality rate once the eggs are fry or fingerlings and stocked.

Even if some of the walleyes are still alive and kicking when they lift their nets the fish are still extremely stressed. Trying to spawn them would be a huge waste of time since the eggs and sperm would be worthless.

[SWMuskeye]

I agree- thats why the dnr would milk the walleyes to preserve their sperm & eggs- to get a better perspective of what I'm talking about check out this link.

http://www.walleyes.org/womanlake/dnrmilking.htm

Based on what I saw in the video most of the walleyes were still kicking as they were removed from the gillnets. If the milking process was done immediately after fish are removed from nets- there could be a lot of saved eggs/sperm.

[goldenwalleye]

Are they restricted during the year, or can they go out and catch as many and whatever size they want during the fishing season? Anyone know if they are unrestricted there as well.

[johncolson]

[Note from admin: Please read forum policy before posting again. Thank you.]

[RiverBassGuy]

Again, not a racist. Just pointing out that equality is not equality anymore. If we are basing the argument off of a treaty, then we should go back and re-examine the logic of that treaty. Indians themselves are not the enemy here.

[SCONASOTAN]

I would like to give my opinion on the bottom line of these issues. The nature of the "masses" (there are many exceptions) of hunters and fishermen were to catch and keep much of what they caught. There was a division created by our states called the DNR created to protect and study how to make our waterways and woods could provide for us for the future. The DNR has done many studies along with other Universities and other "private" entities to show how we can have better fishing and hunting and protect our resources.. Now, with that there have been protected slots and restrictions, why you ask? Because our nature is to keep what you "CAN" or have the "RIGHT" to keep. The DNR in a sense protects us from us. NOW, the natives do not have to follow these rules because of an "ancient"(by modern time education on conservation) treaty. They continue to net vulnerable females because they CAN! Everyone say it with me now,"THEY DO IT BECAUSE THEY CAN!" If the supporters would like to say the Indians do care deeply about these resources, then why don't they educate themselves on what millions of DNR and other conservationalists have over the years???? THey do not care as you the supporters say because they would know that these ways of harvest are NOT the ways to best conserve their fishery. They do not selective harvest (which has been shown in a million of different bodies of water to make it a better fishery). To say that we harvest spawners at different times and is the same as netting at spawning time is a way of saying "just let it go." Again the DNR and other experts (who are paid to be educated people about our environment have set standards so we don't take these fish and even when we do its is for the puposes of trophy mount. The saying of hooking mortality is just as bad is yet another way of justifying their ancient, uneducated ways. Yes, walleyes die of natural causes and hooking mortality, but thousands of people got to enjoy the joy of catching these mamas first. No one could say on here that if these fish were not netted that the fishing would be worse. It cold only be better and those indians could continue to feed their "elders" as they say be hook and line the way the rest of America feeds their elders. The fishing would plain and simple be better. And the distain for the indians in the area would be less, gaurunteed! Come fish with us and share your stories, i would love to here them. I love all fisherman stories. Join in the era of conservation and share all the memories of our past. Its a great time. Having closed seasons to protect spawns and selective harvest works people!!! It only makes our fisheries better and that is the BOTTOM LINE!

Democracy means we are all equal and can share the same rights. People that preach certain groups need special rights are destroying deomcracy further. I'd let anyone fish in my boat as long as they help protect what I love. AMERICA

[Farmboy1]

Well, there are a lot of different opinions on here, so I will voice mine.

1. If you do some research you will find the majority of the netting is done by the WI bands. They do not have any ties to the lake, and do not rely on it for their livelyhood as do many if not most of the Mille Lacs band. The ML Band does not want to see the lake ruined any more then the rest of us. The WI, bands.....well, you decide. The reports I have read state the lost nets are from WI tribes.

2. Native Americans (if you want to call people who migrated here the same as the rest of us, just earlier, native), are not the problem here. People with blatant disrespect for the resource are. And Stupidity does not follow racial prejudice. I feel anyone who would do harm to a fishery claiming any reason deserve to go to teh gauntlet. If you disagree with this, look around, there are some pictures posted online of a couple guys who in about 2 hours located 9 of the lost nets. Were the people who set them out trying to find them as all the media sources stated????? It was not that hard IF THEY TRIED. Again, Disrespect for the resource.

3. If you are truely care about this fishery, do something. Write your Senators, Newspapers, President, anyone. But to come on a fishing website and complain to fisherman over an issue does not get "Average Joe" to understand.

4. Do some research on the treaty and you will understand it is written in a different time and place. There are numerous items you may read and shake your head at that I will not go into here for fear of being called a racist.

5. Taken from the 1837 Treaty, Article 5 The privilege of hunting, fishing, and gathering the wild rice, upon the lands, the rivers and the lakes included in the territory ceded, is guaranteed to the Indians, DURING THE PLEASURE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. This to me does not mean they can do this forever, but only when dictated (or better stated, allowed) by the president.

6. There are lots of people who say "we" kill many fish by simple catch and release. This is not an apples to apples comparison since fish dying from heat exhaustion is not the same as being killed by suffocation slowly over the course of a few days in a net. These fish also are not being killed when they are most vulnerable, the spawn. I think the midseason floaters could also be minimized if the slot limits were not so tight allowing anglers to make use of those fish, but that is another arguement completly.

7. The main disagreement with the whole thing however is that one group of people are allowed to do something that another group of people are not. Could I set up camp at a public access for days at a time? Use a backhoe to remove ice from a PUBLIC access causing damage. Keep as many fish as I can during spawn? Leave a killing device in the water for a period of time when every weather reporter in the state told you the wind was going to blow the ice on you? This is all disrespect.

I think I have said enough about this, and will problably get nixed for writing all this, but misuse of a resource by anyone is wrong. I firmly believe this is casued by a small group of indians doing the majority of the damage, and the people who are doing it right and for the right reasons are simply not heard from, but why does it have to be that way. I would love to hear someone from the ML band come out and say it is wrong, but am not going to hold my breath. You are also not going to find me in a tribal run casino in this lifetime because this is just helping the problem.

The indians I know are a very respectful people, with a heritage I could only hope to have, but the bad get the press, and the good go unheard from.

[SCONASOTAN]

100% agree with you farmboy. And maybe, just maybe if those netted fish were in the lake year after year the slot would be less conservative and thus minimize the mortality and then the netting slaughter and hooking mortality problem would both be solved. And man would mille lacs be an awesome fishery. And if the "natives" still want preferential treatment they could maybe have a larger limit (ala Red Lake) and all the "elders" would be soooooo happy.

[Black_Bay]

 Originally Posted By: SWMuskeye

I agree- thats why the dnr would milk the walleyes to preserve their sperm & eggs- to get a better perspective of what I'm talking about check out this link.

http://www.walleyes.org/womanlake/dnrmilking.htm

Based on what I saw in the video most of the walleyes were still kicking as they were removed from the gillnets. If the milking process was done immediately after fish are removed from nets- there could be a lot of saved eggs/sperm.

The walleyes spawning operation in the link is done with fish that are free swimming in the traps. The DNR dips nets each fish and spawns it. They really aren't stressed in any way. On the other hand the walleyes from the gill nets may have been caught for 30 seconds to 12 hours and then put in those tubs, transported out of water back to the access and only then removed from the nets. It's just not logistically possible to successfully spawn fish after that. If you've ever seen the DNR spawn walleyes you know how fast they work through the fish all in an attempt to get the highest fertilization rate possible.

I understand what you're talking about but unfortunately it's just not feesable.

[MuskieSlayer]

 Originally Posted By: SCONASOTAN

To say that we harvest spawners at different times and is the same as netting at spawning time is a way of saying "just let it go."

Having closed seasons to protect spawns and selective harvest works people!!!

Actually, the closed season is a way to control harvest numbers, not the spawn. The estimates of sportsman harvest is just that, an estimate. By delaying the start of the season we can better control the sportsman harvest. That's the reason there is a night ban and that's the reason the season is delayed until May. It has nothing to do with the spawn.

Now, the native harvest is an accurate count of harvest as every fish is counted by DNR and GLIFWC at the accesses. There is no such accuracy in the sportsman take, only an estimate based on fisherman feedback. With netting, there is no risk of exceeding that safe harvest level because of the accuracy of native harvest count. Look back to last year when the slot was tightening because the sportsman harvest was in danger of exceeding the safe harvest. If we allowed the fishing season to be open in April and early May the lake would likely go to catch and release by mid summer to keep the harvest within the safe levels. You see, fishing seasons and the night ban are a means of controlling the harvest, not protecting the spawn.

Don't take my word for it, I urge you to read up on fisheries and wildlife management, or even contact the DNR to ask them.

[Lip_Ripper Guy]

I'm quite certain that I speak for the majority here when I say that this discussion is not about race as at least 1 person above claimed.

I don't care if you are white, purple, yellow, black, green, red, pink, blue or gold...this is not the proper time of the year to be netting. Give the fish 2 weeks to spawn, or at least milk the ones that are netted, and it will be a MUCH better fishery for everyone.

[SCONASOTAN]

Thanks Muskyslayer,

I do realize that the season stoppage has other reasons for existing (i am sorry for making it sound like that is the ony reason for the season boundaries) but still proves my point of coming to terms with the times and how to preserve our fisheries. I also mean in more lakes than Mille Lacs. Another point that feeds off of this is that there would be no poundage alottment if the "natives" did not net. In reality all special regs on Mille Lacs would not exist (except standard conservaton slots) if the "natives" did not net.

Equal Rights For All, Can anyone argue that??????

[DHanson]

Posted by MuskieSlayer:

The DNR has nothing to do with the accurate count of fish by netting/spearing or the netting/spearing operation while its taking place. The only thing the DNR does is come up with the Bands harvest poundage by netting and spearing. The GLIFWC is in control of the whole thing, that is what is suspicious about this whole deal. Is the GLIFWC doing their job?

[Farmboy1]

 Originally Posted By: MuskieSlayer

Now, the native harvest is an accurate count of harvest as every fish is counted by DNR and GLIFWC at the accesses. There is no such accuracy in the sportsman take, only an estimate based on fisherman feedback. With netting, there is no risk of exceeding that safe harvest level because of the accuracy of native harvest count. Look back to last year when the slot was tightening because the sportsman harvest was in danger of exceeding the safe harvest. If we allowed the fishing season to be open in April and early May the lake would likely go to catch and release by mid summer to keep the harvest within the safe levels. You see, fishing seasons and the night ban are a means of controlling the harvest, not protecting the spawn.

Don't take my word for it, I urge you to read up on fisheries and wildlife management, or even contact the DNR to ask them.

I have contacted the DNR, as well as the GLIFWC, and heard these same things. The only disagreement with this "enforcement" and "regulations" is if this takes place, why can they not give an accurate number of nets lost on the water? Seems that if they were on top of this, they could give accurate numbers, whose net they were, and which access they were supposed to return to, as these organizations claim is done in every instance. I would like them to give an honest answer, but again, will not hold my breath.

It does not take much hard thinking to wave the Bullstuff Flag on that.

The Constitution of the GLIFWC (Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commision)states:

The Great Lakes Indian Fish and Wildlife Commission was begun in recognition of the traditional pursuits of the Native American people and the deep abiding respect for the circle of life in which our fellow creatures have played an essential life-giving role. As governments who have inherited the responsibilities for protection of our fish, wildlife, and plants we are burdened with the inability to effectively carry out tasks as protectors and managers. This is especially true now that the state and federal courts have recognized our traditional claims. We have never intended to abandon our responsibilities.

So this is how they are doing what is right for the resource?

Also why have the quantity of nets being pulled increased from 319 nets in 1998 to 2,018 nets in 2005, the most up to date information I can find. If this is substinence fishing for 18,000 (best number I could find of census information of these tribes) to net 430,000 pounds of walleyes, 270,000 lbs of perch, and 25,000 lbs if pike (725,000 lbs of fish/18,000 people give them over 40 lbs of fish per person). Ceremonial??????

They can also fish with hook and line the same as you or I if they want more fish.

I say it again. This is about one group of people having more rights then another. I pleade with you to do what you think is right, and write to the newspapers, TV News, Senators, etc and have your voice heard.

[Farmboy1]

And I apologize if that comes off to sound like a attack on MuskieSlayer. It is not meant as such, and should not be construed as such.

I am going to let this go for the rest of you guys.

Tight Lines!

Brent

[SPIN DRY]

Hmm. This reminds me of the late 80s over here in WI. When the powers that be in MN turned a blind eye to us, thinking that this could never happen over here in MN. Funny huh? ( not)

[MuskieSlayer]

 Originally Posted By: Farmboy1

...why can they not give an accurate number of nets lost on the water? Seems that if they were on top of this, they could give accurate numbers, whose net they were, and which access they were supposed to return to, as these organizations claim is done in every instance.

The surprising thing is that each net should have some type of identifying number affixed to it and a record of the net being used. I don't know the specifics of the system in place to keep track of the nets so I can not explain the uncertainty of the numbers of lost nets.