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311Hemi

Updated info CNM (Centronuclear Myopathy) in Labradors

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311Hemi

Duckbuster...thanks for the update on that post on CNM....here is the info and link you were referring to!!

For anyone that is not familiar with CNM (Centronuclear Myopathy) in Labradors Retrievers. This is another debilitating disease in Labradors that can be prevented by careful breeding and proper testing/knowledge before breeding.

This is not an easy video to watch but shows you what a CNM affected pup will go through as life progresses.

(Mods: please remove if not allowed)

Labrador with CNM (Warning - Graphic)

The post from another forum:

 Quote:
Subject: Movie of an Affected CNM Pup

If you have not seen this movie of a CNM affected pup, please look.

It will show you why we need to avoid a CNM affected pup ever happening again.

Thank you to the person who put it on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY1DWQqoac0

With knowledgeable and careful breeding we can avoid this.

A pup will go to a new owner at seven to eight weeks of age and little or no symptoms will show.

Then by three to five months what the youtube link shows will happen.

I talk weekly to people globally who find themselves in this situation. It is very tragic for the family as well as the pup who has all the instincts of a normal Labrador and does not know why its body will not work.

I will talk more about genetics in the next few weeks. Meantime, look through http://www.labradorcnm.com and review the Genetics link.

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Bryce

No problem with the video but some numbers please. We talking 1:100 or 1:1,000,000? Prominent and/or well thought out breedings or millish/fence jumper breedings? The internet is a very good distributor of info but always make sure it has a verifiable source of data.

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311Hemi

Bryce, CNM is a prominent disease in labs that IMO (and MANY others) should be tested for (just like hips/eyes/elbows and soon EIC). I don't have any specs on the rate of affected pups, but yes it is in top lines of Labradors (field and conformation) and not something that is just related to back yard breedings. Most or all breeders I know of test for it, but the test for it is fairly new (2004?) and this post is just to help increase awareness as it can be prevented. I personally will not buy a pup without the parents being tested.

It is very verifiable (is that proper English?)...there is a link above to a site dedicated to it if you want to do your own research. I am aware the internet is a very good distributer of info...no harm done!!! grin.gif

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duckbuster

Bryce, If you are interested to know what the rates are google the name Marilyn Fender. She is the leading vet here in the states that is the head of this study. She can put you in touch with a CNM test and how to get the test results back.

GOOD LUCK

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duckbuster

HEMI, thanks for bringing this over. Sorry I'm such a moron with the cutting and pasting.

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Bryce

Guess I'm just asking you guys to be the experts since you brought it up. A quick trip through the site did not show me a definite number other than $67 to test. Not sure if I want to try and converse in French to get my answers since obviously I have enough trouble with English.

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311Hemi

Bryce..no problems with that. Either I or DB can try to answer any questions on the disease or point someone in the right direct to get answers. I know much more about EIC, but CNM follows the same inheritance characteristics.

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duckbuster

Bryce, The test goes to France but your results will be in English.

The main research clinic/school is being done in France by a French doctor.

Actually, you would be much better off by going directly to Marilyn Fender with your questions. I can assure you that she will respond within a day or two to any question you have. She is very, very much involved with the French Dr. on this in regards to the research and where it is heading.

One thing to note about Marilyn, she owned the first chocolate Lab to ever win the National Open back in 1996. The dogs name was Storm's Riptide Star and was handled by Mike Lardy. If you ever watch a Lardy DVD or video the chocolate lab you see in the intro of the DVD is him.

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Bryce

I've read you guys enough to know you understand your hounds but you can't just go waving red flags and then have no back up info. A general #? I've heard of both and understand the infliction is serious but at what point do we quit testing. I know the easy answer is when all hereditary diseases are erradicated. Now define hereditary. I can tell you what the testing does to my next litter. Minimum $100 extra on the purchase price.

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311Hemi

Bryce, whats is there to back up? Are the odds really needed to be a responsible breeder and make a wise decision in breeding? I for one do not believe money should overtake being responsible.....but that is my opinion. I don't see how the definition of hereditary comes into play.

Edit: EIC carrier rate of the 500 labs that were included in the study was 40%. DNA samples were sent in and taken from a number of field trials around the midwest. This should NOT be considered a reflection of the overall Labrador population worldwide, but does show that it is common.

Both CNM and EIC are carried in many lines of labs (including top field trial dogs) and IMO should be tested for by any breeders (unless cleared by parentage). Only the two parents need to be tested one time in their life for these two diseases. Right now that would be roughly $140 to know that a pair of dogs that will be bread (possibly more than once) are clear of CNM and that you are not passing along this disease to anyone that may breed pups they purchase from you. There is no test for EIC available yet, but I can give some numbers on that if you would like.

Just expressing my opinion with this statement (and not directing it at you).....but in my opinion breeders are not bettering the breed in any way if they are not testing your dogs for these disease and having their hips/eye/elbows checked out. There is no point at which we quit testing unless dogs are cleared by parentage.

We will never get rid of these hereditary diseases (and should not), but we can breed with knowledge and keep families/hunters from getting dogs affected by the diseases. To get rid if these diseases would mean getting rid of too many prominent gene pools in the Labrador lines, and non of the people studying these diseases recommends this.

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duckbuster

 Originally Posted By: Bryce
I've read you guys enough to know you understand your hounds but you can't just go waving red flags and then have no back up info. A general #? I've heard of both and understand the infliction is serious but at what point do we quit testing. I know the easy answer is when all hereditary diseases are erradicated. Now define hereditary. I can tell you what the testing does to my next litter. Minimum $100 extra on the purchase price.

Bryce, please don't think that Hemi and I are ganging up on you.

I would again like to point out, get in touch with Marilyn Fender via e-mail. She will answer your questions in great detail.

Don't you think a $100.00 is a bit excessive to add to the price? The test is 50-70 bucks, divide that by say 8-10 pups and you have an average of around $7.00 added to your price. Now if you breed again and again now what has happened to the price. That CNM test fee is long gone.

Like Hemi stated we need to be responsible with our breeding. Another statement that is said over and over, "if one is breeding to make a buck you are not doing the breed any favors".

I would close by saying this, take a good long, hard look at that video and ask yourself this question, "How would I feel if I could have prevented selling an afflicted pup like this one to a buyer" or "How would I feel if I were to buy a pup from a litter not knowing what clearances they might or might not have and it could be me that ends up with a helpless puppy in this condition".

In the end we have to ask ourselves what is best for our breed of Labs!!!!

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Bryce

My skin is way too thick to feel picked on. Also not going to argue the seriousness of the afflictions. Haven't had a litter since 2005 so this is something that has come up since. I only breed to top notch males so sure this test is going to be required. I just like seeing approximate numbers instead of a blanket statement that it is greatly affecting labs. $100 on $1000+ puppies = less than 10% for piece of mind.

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Johnny_Namakan

Jumping in alittle late here, but you guys may remember a few months ago I posted about an issue my neighbor was having with his 6 month old yellow. You guys helped point us in the right direction regarding CNM. After viewing the earlier footage, not the youtube footage recently posted, it was obviously that my neighbors dog did indeed have CNM. My neighbor did end up putting the pup down. he discussed it with the breeder and the breeder was willing to refund his money, but the money wasn't the issue. He had a little buddy that he was excited to have and had trained very well for only 6 months and all for nothing. With regards to the breed itself, there were 7 other pups in that litter and do not appear to have any problems, but those pups carry the gene to pass on that trait. We can all hope that these people were notified and will nto breed, but i'm a realist and the chances this was done are slim. I do know the breeder will not breed these same dogs again, but that doesn't speak for the pups that have been spread out throughout the state and elsewhere. With that in mind, one has to believe the problem will get worse (more widespread) before it gets better. If it's not being tested for, we aren't doing justice to the labrador breed. I guess it's an ethical thing to test for at this point rather than a mandatory, but I'd like to see it become just as prevailant as hips and eyes being tested. My 2 cents anyway!

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311Hemi

Bryce, good to hear that you would be doing the testing. My intent of the post (and DB's I would assume) was to make people more aware of this disease (and what a puppy actually goes through) and I don't recall stating that it is "greatly affecting labs".

The point is that it is out there, and it can be prevented. While I agree numbers may be good to see, I don't believe they should sway any breeders (#'s being available or not) from doing this test.

I have been emailing with Marilyn (she is very willing to talk in depth about CNM), and as far as numbers go they are not available yet but should be hopefully later this year.

Jonny, sorry to hear about your neighbors dog....hopefully awareness will spread and keep others from going through what your neighbors did.

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Bryce

I think we just got to the bottom of this. Numbers not available yet. Once again, I have no problem with the test and hope it will eradicate the affliction.

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311Hemi

Out of curiosity....would the numbers make a difference to you?

BTW....there is a white list on the labradorcnm.com site. You can go there to check to see if certain dogs are on the white list (meaning they are not carriers).

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Bryce

I just think we may be taking a sky is falling approach to something we can't yet put a number on. From what I've read so far, I think the test will be warranted. Problem I see is the readers on here are all going to be looking for that test now. Most buyers think $4-500 is top line. Most breeders of those caliber pups aren't going to have test results. That brings them to us and when they see 2-3 times the price, the affliction all of sudden doesn't seem so serious. I know it was brought up about furthering the breed over the dollar but I'm trying to develope a line that will produce a chocolate female FC. That ain't cheap. Kind of nice to somewhat recoup the costs until I get to that point where I can name my price. Obviously developing a line of that quality isn't possible by cutting corners.

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Jarrod32

You guys are talking about labs specifically...but I think I saw somewhere where this also affects Chesapeakes, as well as German Shepherds...or am I getting this confused with another affliction?

Is this limited to labs? Or to the retriever breeds? Do owners or future owners of other hunting breeds need to be aware of this? Any insight on other breeds could be helpful...

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Jarrod32

A quick look around and I think I was confused...what I was thinking of regarding Chessies and German Shepherds is Degenerative Myelopathy. Just as nasty in its own right...

Sorry for any additional confusion I may have caused with my own confusion.

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cw642

I had a long post explaining my point of view on testing and bettering a breed. I deleated it. All I can say I it makes me sick to see comments on $ when it comes to breeding and further ruining a breed. Absolutly sick.

CW

By the way if 40% of FT dogs tested are carriers, the breed is in definate trouble

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Bryce

Because I hope to make money off breeding my dogs equates to ruining the breed? What a rediculous statement. Do you really think I am going to be careless when I fully expext to invest tens of thousands into one of the pups? The rest are then sold on limited registration which will be lifted upon proof of passing test results (hips, elbows, eyes, and soon to be CNM it looks like). Sorry I'm being so harsh on the breed. I do have to thank you for reinforcing my original point. Too little info too soon in the wrong hands causes confusion. 40% is the rate of EIC for which there is currently no test available.

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duckbuster

Bryce, are you going to check the white list the next time you do a breeding?

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cw642

Bryce adding $100 dollars to the price of a pup of a test is outragous. The test is $67 times two, that equals $134 for the first breeding. Average litters are 6-7. You keep two you think will make your "female world champion" that leaves you with an extra $400 to pay for your testing. The next litter is $100 each of pure profit. Tell me that makes sense. Just another thing you can charge for I guess. I am sorry that I confused EIM for CNM or bad hips,eyes,elbows,Patilia or whatever the newest problem this breed is having.

CW

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311Hemi

There is a test for EIC, however it is not considered official and it has not breed released yet (my dog was a part of the study). The 40% is not an accurate number to be used for the overall Lab population....it was just a random sample (not randomized study) from some field trial tests. I however feel it does show that EIC is carried in a decent number of dogs and thus warrants the test....and I feel CNM is no different. The breed is NOT in trouble, it just requires responsible breeding. Because a dog is a carrier of either CNM or EIC does NOT mean it cannot be bread, only that it can only be bread to a non-carrier of the particular disease.

 Quote:
Problem I see is the readers on here are all going to be looking for that test now. Most buyers think $4-500 is top line. Most breeders of those caliber pups aren't going to have test results.

They very well should be looking for this test.....and thus the reason for this post in the first place. This should be no different than OFA results for hip dysplasia.....again, all in my opinion.

LETS GET THIS POST BACK ON TOPIC....this was not about responsible breeding but to inform other of the disease.

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