How Valuable are our Big Pike?

[shooter_mcgavin]

Anybody feel like reading and summarizing that study for us?

[shooter_mcgavin]

 Originally Posted By: merkman

 Originally Posted By: shooter_mcgavin

My point is that most spear-fishermen seem to target the big ones.

I agree to disagree.

At the top of this forum is the 2007-2008 Darkhouse Pictures thread. After scrolling through that, I wonder how you could believe that most spear fishermen target small northerns, and let the big ones swim by.

Its interesting that, posted elsewhere, an artice citing the benefits of selective harvest is generally well-received. However once posted in a forum devoted to spear-fishing, the article is disected and ridiculed, citing "misleading information". Might this be out of fear of future regulations which would not allow people to spear big fish?

Let me just add that spear fishing as a sport, doesn't bother me one bit. In fact, it sounds pretty fun. I'd love to spear a few snakes for pickling (never tried them pickled but hear people talk about it all the time). The problem I have is large pike being targeted by most, which I believe has a dramatic affect on a fishery.

[bassNspear]

 Originally Posted By: shooter_mcgavin

At the top of this forum is the 2007-2008 Darkhouse Pictures thread. After scrolling through that, I wonder how you could believe that most spear fishermen target small northerns, and let the big ones swim by.

The reason that your seeing the bigger fish is becuase when a person spears a fish of that size, there going to show it off

[AWH]

Bass N Spear,

I hate to speak for someone else. But I think that's exactly his point. Nothing wrong with showing off the fish that you catch or spear. But it's impossible to show off a big fish if you "let it swim", which I believe, was shooter's point.

I may not agree with spearing a big pike. But if you choose to do it legally, great. If you choose to let them swim and only spear the small ones, that's great too. What I find bothersome is the folks that will argue that they don't spear big fish and then you see them showing off one (or several) of those big ones.

Muskiefool, thanks for posting that study. When I have more time than I have right now I'm going to be sure to read it!

Aaron

[bassNspear]

I understand what your saying. There is nothing wrong with spearing big fish at all. And theres nothing wrong with smaller fish as well. You have to remember, spearing smaller fish, will help the population in a lake so it dont get over populated.

Every single person that spears, somewhere down the line, will spear a big fish. There is no doubt about it. Iv speared big fish as well. People have to understand that its going to happen. Its just like tip up fishing, its going to happen.

[browning_gold]

I spear a lot of small fish that I would consider good eaters. But I will be the first to admit that any fish that I would consider big that comes into my hole does get speared...

[Tom7227]

I've spent a lot of time reading the various threads on the spearing/angling debate.

I, and others, have suggested that people go and look at pictures on FM as proof that spearers target big fish. The hole in that logic? How many people post pictures of the little fish they caught? I don't think that's the way it works in any forum on any subject. Show me the medal, the rack, the length, the report card. You don't advertise failure or mediocrity.

In a class I took - maybe advanced hunter ed - there was a section about the four stages of being a hunter. It was something like 1 shooting anything that flies 2. seeing how many you can get 3. getting into the ID, habits, habitat etc. 4 sitting back and watching most of the time and not pulling the trigger very often. The point that was stressed was that every hunter goes into at least one or more of these phases. Some stay in one their whole life, some move to others. But most importantly to those who enjoy the outdoors is the need to realize that there is nothing good nor bad about any one phase. A 4 is not 'better' than a 3.

Perhaps this needs to be applied to the issue of spearing vs. angling. Can it be thought of in terms of who is superior the rifle hunter, the person who uses a black powder, a person with compund bow, or someone with a recurve? The answer is no one is superior. It is how you chose to do it.

I urge all of you to go to the study and read it and learn what you can. It is at

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fisheries/muskie_pike/muskiepike_2020.pdf

It is an interesting read, and gives us all something to think about.

Thanks for your time.

[AWH]

 Originally Posted By: Bass N Spear

Every single person that spears, somewhere down the line, will spear a big fish. There is no doubt about it. Iv speared big fish as well. People have to understand that its going to happen. Its just like tip up fishing, its going to happen.

I don't believe that every person that spears will spear a big fish at some point. I know a number of people that simply do not spear with any intention of throwing the spear at anything over a few pounds. They spear for the sport and the enjoyment of watching the fish in their natural environment and will take a few 2 to 4 pounders for the table.

I'm not saying that this makes these people better. But let's not assume that all spearers will take a big fish at some point. To say this as a spearer is one reason why people against spearing will think that we are all bad for the size structure of pike in our waters. Personally, I have no use for a pike over 5 pounds. So I can guarantee that a spear will never leave my hand in the direction of anything bigger than that. I like the smaller fish for the table and I have no desire to put one on the wall. Simply a personal choice.

I realize that some people like the taste of big pike better. I will never understand that. But I will also never understand how some people like the taste of liver.

Food for thought...if (as spearers/anglers) we were to think of only what's best for our fisheries and not about our own "wants", would we still harvest fish in the same manner? Or would we choose a different approach to what we harvest?

Aaron

[Muskiefool]

It says that if you take the big fish out selectively the future generations of fish suffer what they call Maladaptive(Counterproductive or abnormal) Changes resulting in Low egg volumes, lower vertebral numbers, inability to feed under normal and pressured conditions, problems with stamina and strength, they grow slower, less fish hatch from eggs and survive.

Here are some of the things that jump out of the study this could be considered a blue print on how to create a Hammer Handle Lake, if you like large numbers of useless fish just kill the big ones its that simple, I'm not trying to P!$$ anyone off, I just think we all need to reevaluate our practices and learn that letting a big fish swim is the best for yourself and those kids you want to see grow up in a sport and pastime we can be proud of.

Populations where large fish were selectively harvested (as in most fisheries) displayed substantial declines in fecundity(reproduction), egg volume, larval size at hatch, larval viability(survival), larval growth rates, food consumption rate and conversion efficiency(the amount of food needed to grow), vertebral number, and willingness to forage. These genetically based changes in numerous traits generally reduce the capacity for population recovery.

It is unclear why some collapsed fisheries fail to recover even after harvesting has been reduced for more than a decade (Hutchings 2000; Hutchings & Reynolds 2004). By targeting the oldest, largest, and fastest growing individuals in a stock, fisheries generate strong directional selection favouring the survival of younger, smaller, and slower growing phenotypes(Quality of the fish and its genetics).

Larval growth rates were also 25% lower in comparison with randomly selected controls. Furthermore, the probability of survival of these larvae to an age of 10 days was 61% lower than survival in randomly harvested lines.

When subjected to a simulated predatory attack, large-size harvested fish remained in hiding for a significantly longer period of time before resuming foraging.

I hope this helped clear up some of the information it took me along time to figure out most of this stuff I'm just a fishermen myself.

[Hammer Handle]

I do spear big fish. I do let some go too. I have even taken and eaten muskies (some where in a lake that should NOT have any...they were illegally stocked).

If spear fishing was illegal, I would angle and keep large fish.

There has to be some give and take on both sides. Who is going to go out and keep all the small panfish and let the big ones go? How many catch and release fisherman will quit fishing in the dog days of summer for many of the fish they catch will not survive?

We have overfished our lakes for many years and we are trying to have them recover...but due to overfishing and lakeshore habitat being ruined...it will be next to impossible. But, we have to try...but there has to be give and take on both sides.

One guy argues to catch and release everything and then tears all the weeds out along his shore to make a beach for swimming and a spot for his $$ boat and lift. Another guy keeps all his fish to eat and catches much less for he only uses a small boat and 5 horse motor. It seems that the second example is being tarketed as more money lies with person #1 (taxes, $$ for boat and electronics, etc).

[shooter_mcgavin]

 Originally Posted By: Bass N Spear

There is nothing wrong with spearing big fish at all.

Nothing legally wrong with it. But would you agree that the big pike are important to the overall fishery of the lake? I believe removing them affects the quality of fishing for all species.

 Originally Posted By: Bass N Spear

Iv speared big fish as well. People have to understand that its going to happen. Its just like tip up fishing, its going to happen.

You make it sound like people don't have a choice "oh man, that's a big pike......wait, what's wrong with my arm......i can't control it...can't stop...don't wanna...aaaaaahhhhhhh....WAM!" Sorry had to have a little fun with ya this morning....

You can release northerns when you're tipup fishing. Yes there's a small mortality rate, but its not 100%. I'm curious, what do you do with a 15(+)lb pike that has holes in it? I'm assuming its ruined for mounting. Do they taste good? This is an honest question, I've wondered for a long time....

Bass n Spear, I see your point on the picture posted on the top of the thread. Makes sense that those pictures may not represent the average fish speared. However, if you browse through the walleye pictures thread, there's quite a few "eaters" in there. There's also some pigs, but the key is that a lot of them say C&R.

[merkman]

[shooter_mcgavin]

nice reply Merkman. can't say I've ever been called a troll before. I can take a hint, later dudes.

(thought it was a good discussion)

*edit* Let me just add, Merkman, that you've got 8 posts on this thread, the same as me! So I guess that makes you a troll as well....

You simply argued with my points (even proposing analogies for me to respond to), and when I respond, you label me a troll.....give me a break

[nine-tiner]

I am confused about the comments about the objection to the pictures in this forum of the large fish taken. Why are there no objections when the photos of all the trophy deer start showing up every fall?? I would love to shoot a trophy deer but it seems everyone else is shooting them before I get a chance...if the VERY FEW spearers out there can't post a picture without being "roasted" lets keep the "big buck" photos off as well because "trophy deer" might be "worth" even more

[fisherking01]

Please let me know what lakes you would not like me to spearfish and I will try to accomodate your wishes. Brent

[Scott M]

We have a thread that's kind of going in 15 different directions here. The thread title is "how important are our big pike", but we are getting into the ethics and ecology of spearing. We have referenced papers on atlantic silversides, a marine species (but I will say the point of the papers are to document classic symptoms of overexploitation, which is pertinent to the discussion of large pike scarcity and lakes stuck in hammerhandle mode). And we're reviewing the long range plan for pike and large muskies. Maybe it's all relevant to the discussion, maybe its not. But it sure it tough to sort through the discussion with so many topics presented.

I don't have much more to add other than to say it appears big pike are very valuable to our fisheries from a variety of standpoints (biological, ecological, economical, etc.)

As far as the merits and morality of spearing, to each their own. One (or a dozen) cannot speak for all the spearers in the state. All one can look at is the facts and let the opinions lay where they are.

I'm guessing no one will be able to get this paper without a subscription, but try reading at least the abstract of the following paper: "Recreational Darkhouse Spearing for Northern Pike in Minnesota: Historical Changes in Effort and Harvest and Comparisons with Angling" by Pierce and Cook (2000). A google search should bring the abstract up.

I'm not trying to kill this thread, just find a single track for it to move on. More posts on how valuable big pike are, are welcome.

[Tom7227]

I think the point is that there is a basis for concern no matter how a large pike or muskie is harvested. The aspersions cast by either side of the spear/no spear debate really don't add much other than to prove that some folks don't know how to spell, others are arrogant and many are ignorant about the consequences of their position/practices.

[shooter_mcgavin]

 Quote:

Please let me know what lakes you would not like me to spearfish and I will try to accomodate your wishes. Brent

Just to defend myself...I never suggested that I don't want people spearfishing. Obviously you may spear wherever you please. In fact, I mentioned that I wouldn't mind trying it sometime! The pictures of "norwegian tv" look pretty cool.

Again, I just think that over-harvesting large pike.....by any means.....affects a fishery (all species). Sorry that I singled out spear-fishermen.

Hope this isn't considered "trolling".... Just felt the need to go back to my original point, which is also the topic of this thread.

Thanks for posting the link to another discussion AWH.....its a good read but not the one I was thinking of. I looked a little but couldn't find it. It was an interesting perspective on the affects of over-harvesting big pike.

[fisherking01]

Sorry for the sarcasm, just too many directions for the title. Big pike are no doubt one of the decicisive factors to a healthy fishery that is indiginous to pike. Many fisheries that are managed (ie private lakes) for species without the presence of pike are extremely healthy and productive for the species they are managed for. Lakes with populations of pike are balanced with the pike on the top of the food chain. It is plain that these mighty predators will in certain cases keep the population of small pike, as well as smaller prey in check. It has been my observation that pike will in fact eat a diet of nearly entirely small pike given the opportunity. Sunfish, bass walleye, roughfish.... all are food for these predators. I don't know how much a healthy 20 pound pike has to eat to get to 25 pounds, but I beleive it is a lot. It's pretty much a given that if you find a lake with big pike, you'll find big sunnies. How valuable are big pike? all depends on the specific fishery. In a lake with only sunfish and walleyes, not much change, as the walleyes keep the sunfish in check. I some other lakes, Extremely valuable to the health of the fishery.

[browning_gold]

 Originally Posted By: shooter_mcgavin

You can release northerns when you're tipup fishing. Yes there's a small mortality rate, but its not 100%. I'm curious, what do you do with a 15(+)lb pike that has holes in it? I'm assuming its ruined for mounting. Do they taste good? This is an honest question, I've wondered for a long time....

Actually We have a couple trophy pike mounted that were speared and no there is no sign what so ever that it was speared.

[fishgutz77]

After reading 5 pages to catch up my brain is oatmeal, especially after the treatise. I caught my first pike at 7yrs and am now 48 do the math. those that know me also know I put more hrs on the water soft or hard than a lot of tourney fisherman. participated in large pike/muskie catching for broodstock for muskies inc. with past president John Bohndus in the mid and late 70's John and Frank S. are gone now god bless them for the work they did. and this has been my experience.

Fact. there are basically 3 lake types in MN

each have very different growth rates for pike in a given

regein, north, central and southern.

And now let's factor in the large lake thing with the

middle and small lakes.

now lets factor in one of the most important things there

is and that is the lakes water under and over 15ft as it

relates to the total acreage of the lake.

and then the final factor of forage speices available like

high fat high protein fish, tulibee, ciscos, smelt.

Is it any wonder why the DNR and others are having a hard time coming up with a plan that makes sense to me or others.

The other fact is: there is no spear and release only good stewardship of the resource you love. And I love big pike, which is what the thread is really getting to.

the pike/ resource is so valuable that is impacts the entire economy of MN and the nation.

Lets just start with the bait suckers/decoys/shiners/artificals what do you see in a mega sized chains that target pike/muskies. this is a billion dollar industry that supports lots of families.

Now the Marketing and resort industry:it's so large that I would venture to say that it probably impacts the photo industry as well. And now for the nostalgic/experience/sportsman/ fish hugger factor. the pictures of my kids with big pike are like lottery tickets to me. The memories of my fishing partners with big pike are priceless.

John B and Frank S taught me to think like this:

A givin body of water only has so many acres of water that are really good fish habitat and which will support so many pounds of fish per acre just like some ag animals in a pasture. And each acre will only support so much with in that lake type and geological area/climate. it boils down to you can have 10-ten pound pike per acre = 100lbs or 20- five pounders and so on,you get the picture.

A great study was done years ago and was published in the in-fisherman magazine by Dr. Bernard Labeau on transmiters in large pike and muskies. this really opened my eyes up to the world of large pike and how they can be elusive and conditioned to baits and people. this is why I think the spearing guys see so many large pike. by the way I have hundereds of hours in Buddy Kalpins spear house as a comapanion and never have speared a fish though the ice but understand the attraction and I do collect the decoys they are the bomb. Lets go to barbless hooks on the big water and treat them like liquid gold. because this is our true trophy resource that grows'em big. Great Thread keep it going.

[Bowfin]

Wow, this is a hot topic! All the interest, comments, and strong opinions prove to answer the original question - our big pike are indeed valuable! Valuable for catch and release, catch and keep, spearing, watching video taping or just knowing they are there. Through my own experience, and the strong comments of others, I am convinced of a point I made in my earlier post some 3 pages ago:

That is:

One last point - In Minnesota I think it is important and possible to provide a variety of northern pike opportunities. I have come to realize the value of providing for some trophy northern lakes (although it was hard personally because they chose the lake I spear on "not in my backyard mentality"). I also think it is important to leave other lakes open to spearing large fish. It concerns me a bit with talk of expanding slot lakes that someday it would lead to a statewide slot. Everyone who spears should have the opportunity to "go after the big ones" from time to time.

This thread proves we will never get everyone to agree on one pike management standard. We should be thankful we live in the State of 10,000 lakes. A place where the DNR can provide (through differing management regulations) a variety of fishing/spearing opportunities and a place where big pike will continue to roam.