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zamboni

Bert Denied Again

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zamboni    0
zamboni

What a joke. If he ever spent time with a New York team or the Red Sox, he would have been a first ballot inductee. Kindof tired of the politics in MLB

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Scott K    28
Scott K

I agree. It does get sickning! I feel sorry for Bert, And Jack, they get hosed every year!

It gets old when you go to fox sports, espn, si, ect.. and thats all that in the headlines, Yankees!! PUKE!!

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PierBridge    0
PierBridge

I don't think its politics at all.

One, its very difficult to get into the Hall being a pitcher heck I can't even remember the last starter to get in.

I know there has not been many in the last 15 years or so!

Two, its really difficult to get in with less then dominating stats like Bert and Jack have.

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blue_healer_guy    5
blue_healer_guy

I'll agree with Pier. Not saying Bert doesn't belong, but average to above average career stats take longer. He will get in in the long run. A 3 year span of dominating stats and he would have been in. If he'd keep his mouth shut, he might make it next year.

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zamboni    0
zamboni

 Originally Posted By: PierBridge
I don't think its politics at all.

One, its very difficult to get into the Hall being a pitcher heck I can't even remember the last starter to get in.

I know there has not been many in the last 15 years or so!

Two, its really difficult to get in with less then dominating stats like Bert and Jack have.

Pier- we have agreed to disagree on here before, and this is another time. Berts stats for the most part, would have been greatly improved if not for the most part playing for weaker teams. He is the only pitcher to post 3,000+ Ks and not get elected into the hall. He is #26 All-Time in Wins, #5 All-Time in strikeouts, and has 1 no hitter to his name.

One more thing- "Goose" Gossage? Oh yeah- he was a Yankee, and his stats aren't near as good as Berts, BUT- he was a Yankee. Last starting pitcher elected was Nolan Ryan- and very well deserved, but Bert deserves it too. Pier- baseballs one thing you and I probably aren't going to agree on- but I don't think I am the only one here.

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mike morris    0
mike morris

I definitley agree Bert deserved to get in... once again. But Gossage was also long overdue. Now if Bert doesn't get it next year, that's just ridiculous.

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OLY    0
OLY

Bert has 60 shutouts, 60!!!!!!!!!!! Thats really the only stat I need to see. If he would have spent his career in NY he would have been in years ago, maybe not first ballot, but years ago.

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wingnut38    0
wingnut38

bert will get in. with this whole steroids thing going on, a lot of todays players won't get the call even if they didn't use, they are linked to the era. bert will get in probably elected by the veterans committee.

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juggs    0
juggs

Whether Blyleven should be in or not, Gossage over him?? I looked up his numbers--1800 innings, 124 wins. Not even close to HOF material. The one year he was made a starter he went 9-17 with an ERA just under 4.00. Closers just don't get enough work to even be considered for the Hall. One thing I'll give him, he didn't come in in the ninth inning to get his saves. He earned them.

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PierBridge    0
PierBridge

Common Zamboni the only thing we really disagree on is whether its easier to field on a SMOOTH artificial turf or a very inconsistent and ever changing dirt/grass infield....LOL

Oh yeah and I believe A-Rod has used performance enhancing drugs also. grin.gif

I'm not against Bert Being in the Hall but if you look at ALL the stats like ERA, W-L's, HOME RUNS allowed he's just not there yet.....and like stated above if he would just quit whinning he'll be in eventually.

Just so we are clear here the voting is done by sports writers from every Major league city......not just NY or Boston!!!!!!

We can put all the woulda shoulda coulda's we want out there but thats not going to get him in the Hall.....

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zamboni    0
zamboni

I understand where the voting is done- but the profile in Pittsburgh, Anaheim, Cleveland and Minnesota isn't as high as Boston or New York- therefore not getting his name mentioned as much makes a difference. He has until 2012 to get in ballot wise, but I am pretty certain the Veterans Comittee will let him in as someone stated above.

Does Jack Morris deserve it? I am a little up in the air about him, personally his 91 post season stats are enough for me, but I don't vote. Jack definitely deserves it more than someone like a Gary Carter- but he did play for a New York team as well

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AWH    0
AWH

I heard a stat about Bert recently that really surprised me. I believe he only had 2 all-star appearances in 22 years. This does say something about his dominance, or maybe lack there of. However, for his longevity and consistency, he should be a shoe in for the hall.

I would agree that the teams he was on didn't help his overall stats (namely his win-loss record) for the most part. But take a look at his ERA. 13 out of 22 years he had an ERA of 3.18 or BELOW, including 9 consecutive years to start his career. Granted, those years were in a different era than that of today, when an ERA of 4.00 is considered good. But that's still dang impressive. 16 out of 22 years, logging over 200 innings as well.

Aaron

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zamboni    0
zamboni

Remember something though about his era of playing which really makes his ERA stat impressive- starting pitchers went 8 innings for the most part back then, not the 5 or 6 of today.

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Willy    0
Willy

Yes, but you also have to remember that and AVERAGE era in Bert's era was somewhere around 3.00 - 3.5. His era was simply average, his WL record is not overly impressive(I do however feel that W-L is not a stat that pitchers should be judges by) he never won a Cy Young award and he only made 2 all-star games. I think those stats/facts are part of the hold-up of him getting into the hall. Other than that, he does have the stats needed to get in and I agree 60 shutouts, his strikeouts, and an average of 245 IP is very impressive.

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AWH    0
AWH

Bert's ERA was better than the league average in 17 of his 22 years (and 16 of his first 18 years). Over his career he had a 3.31 ERA. The league ERA over that span was 3.90. So considerably better than the league average.

Good point on pitching longer into games than they do these days. 242 complete games. 242 out of 685 starts. Wow!!!

Aaron

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cjac    0
cjac

Longevity of career is far overlooked as is durability. Complete games, starts, and shutout numbers are ones we may not see again. Glavine may be the last 300 game winner we see for a long time. Look at Santana, arguably the best pitcher around now and he has 92 career wins at age 29, so it'll take 10 years of 20+ wins to hit 300. The gopher balls given up and not enough of playing in a big market hurt Bert a bit. My opinion, yes he should be in, had the prettiest curve you'll ever see.....

Glavine is somewhat similar to Bert, consistent but not a pitcher you'd mention jump up to mention at the top of your list as being dominant in the last 20 years. He was 2nd fiddle to Greg Maddux in Atlanta for years, despite comparable numbers.

Curious.....Do you think Glavine is a shoe-in HOF player?

Chris

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AWH    0
AWH

Chris,

Good comparison on Bert and Glavine. Glavine has had a more glamorous career for sure, mostly do to playing all those years with the Braves. Interesting how his numbers were seemingly more average when he went to the Mets. Age played a role there, no doubt. But you can't discount the success of the teams as well.

Comparing Bert's career to Glavine's right now, with Bert's totals first...

Years: 22 to 21

Wins: 287 to 303

Starts: 685 to 669

CG: 242 to 56

Shutouts: 60 to 25

Innings: 4970 to 4350

HR: 430 to 345

BB: 1322 to 1463

Ks: 3701 to 2570

ERA: 3.31 to 3.51

League Ave ERA during career: 3.90 to 4.16

All-Star: 2 to 10

Cy Youngs: 0 to 2

By all accounts, I think Glavine is considered to be a cinch for the Hall, as I think he should be. But I don't think his numbers above are really all that much more impressive than Bert's.

Take a look at Maddux's numbers. Glavine was just about as good as him for a few years and even better some of that time. But there was a stretch where Maddux was so far ahead of everyone else in the league it was scary.

Aaron

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PierBridge    0
PierBridge

You are comparing apples to oranges'

Personally when I think of hall of fame pitches I think about pitchers that dominate for long stretches, Bert didn't do that.

I actually agree with Dan Barreiro and think Morris is more deserivng then Bert based on the dominating period he had in both the regular season and PLAYOFF's

It's OK to be a Homer guy's nothing wrong with wanting one of your own Pitchers in the HALL.

Baseball's Hall of Fame voting is as good/fair as it gets compared to other ML sports process.

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AWH    0
AWH

Most of my actual memories date back to the mid to early 80s. Prior to that, I was too young to remember so I can only go off of the stats and what I've heard. But was Morris ever really a dominant pitcher? I never remember him as such, other than some of his post season play. But being a big game pitcher definitely does say something.

My memories of Morris during the prime of his career were nothing more than a very good pitcher, not a hall of fame type pitcher.

Interesting that the postseason career of Morris is brought up though. No one will forget what he did in '91 with the Twins, especially his 10 inning performance in game 7. If one game could get a guy into the hall, that would definitely be it. He was also lights out in the postseason with the Tigers in '84. But what he did in '87 with the Tigers and '92 with the Blue Jays wasn't all that good.

Blyleven's post season numbers are actually better than those of Morris, although in about half the innings as Jack. 5-1 career mark for Bert with a 2.47 ERA in 47+ innings.

Aaron

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AWH    0
AWH

I would agree that baseball's voting process is pretty fair. I don't know how you would change it to make it any better, other than to maybe change the 15 year rule if a guy has a certain percentage of votes (say 50%, for example). If he falls below that point at any time after 15 years, he's off the ballot. What if a guy like Jim Rice gets 74% of the vote next year? Then he's off the ballot for good.

Aaron

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cjac    0
cjac

Pier,

Somewhat apples to oranges, but still pitcher to pitcher in overlapping careers, with quite comparable stats, thanks for the stats Aaron. Not like comparing Gibson or Kaufax to a modern day pitcher. Bert never had an offense like Atlanta had behind Glavine, as seen in his relatively low post season stats, suggesting his teams weren't as good. 3705 K's shows his individual dominance.

Morris was statistically the best for the 80s I beleive, or close to, but not the 20+ years of a career like Bert and Glavine. Yes, game 7 in '91 was amazing, but if one post season is enough then should we be talking about F-Rod of the Angels as a HOF candidate based on what he did a couple years ago for Amaheim? Likely not, but he was dominant that post-season.

Aaron mentions Jim Rice, should his stats be measured differently compared to others since he was in Fenway? Lots of doubles, RBIs, and HRs that would be warning track fly-outs in most parks if not for the Green Monster? What would someone like Andre Dawson have done with several years on natural turf for his knees and the Monster for his stats? Not arguing at all, just thinking and typing......

Yes, HOF voting in baseball is the purest there is, but still skewed by exposure and markets the player was in, especially for players in the pre-ESPN era of coverage.

This is what makes it fun to be a baseball fan!

Chris

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edgeucator    0
edgeucator

this is just like any other sport if you werent part of a dynasy of part of a multi winning title team, you could be one of the best players ever but people arent going to remember you. i feel bad for bert and jack they deserve to be in the hall of fame maybe more that others in it now

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PierBridge    0
PierBridge

 Originally Posted By: edgeucator
this is just like any other sport if you werent part of a dynasy of part of a multi winning title team, you could be one of the best players ever but people arent going to remember you. i feel bad for bert and jack they deserve to be in the hall of fame maybe more that others in it now

Do you have any data or facts that would support your views?

Also what if Bert would have pitched during the Performance enhancing drug, steroid era?

Can you say whiplash or Home runs allowed CITY! grin.gif

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Cicada    5
Cicada

I tried to find a list of where Bert ranked when he actually retired. I found up-to-date rankings including current players. I may have missed someone, but the only retired person ahead of him in most catagories that isn't in the Hall of Fame was Tommy John in only one catagory and I can't remember which catagory. Almost everyone ahead of him and bunches of guys that he's ahead of are in the Hall of Fame.

Too bad Bert is know for the longball. If you take the two bad years (50 and 46, I think), he averaged less than 20 home runs per year over his career. For the number of innings he pitched each year, that didn't seem too bad.

Hey, just think. If Bert had been on steriods, he could have picked a guys off third and fired a strike with the same curveball pitch.

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jigging-matt    0
jigging-matt

Stats do support Bert getting into the hall. A lot of it has to do with teams. Hopefully Bert will make it next year.

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