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mnhunter2

Lead shot banned!!!!

53 posts in this topic

I was wondering how many hunters are aware that the mn dnr has on its to do list to work towards the total ban on any lead shot used for hunting small game in the great state of MN, any thoughts?

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I used to be against it but this year i have be using 2 shot steel and i have been having real good luck with it .And hardly any bb s to pick out i started hunting alot of federal land where I had to use it and at this point it is all i use. the cost isn,t really that much different the only problem will be with the older guns. The only problem that I have is to find 2 steel in 2 3/4 shot .there is plenty of 3 inch around but I think that it is overkill on roosters 2 shot seems to take out there wings and I have had a couple of headshots but I have a pointer and most of my shots are close.

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If their gonna ban it than they should first ban the sale of it!Let hunters have a year or two to expend all their lead shot! Or have a trade in!!

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I've actually started using steel almost exclusively because for me to switch back and forth does seem to affect my ability to hit the target. Although, it might have less to do with the shot and more to do with my ability but with that said, I can't afford to throw other variables into the mix.

On a related note I have a quick question. On second thought, maybe I better just start another thread.

Bob

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I hate steel shot and I keep track of all the roosters I shoot and the wounding rate is way higher for steel.

Let me ask you this, if I offered you $100,000 if you could find a piece of lead shot on my land, would you even bother looking?

How about this, the MPCA has residential lead limits for concentrations in soils. Has any study been done to see how the concentrations in the field compare to this? Save the money on the study, I can tell you they dont. So what proponents of the lead ban are saying is that it is ok to have more lead in the soil your kids play in than in a field somewhere. From a science perspective, it makes no sense.

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I use 2 Shot almost exclusively now as well and havn't really noticed a difference between the number I shoot with it or the 5 shot lead. I am indifferent to a ban.

Raymondk, I see 2 3/4" 2 shot all over. They had a bunch at Gander in EP earlier this year. I found it first before I found the 3"

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I don't really care either way. The only thing that bums me out is I like to use the full choke later in the year and most say do not shot steel from a full choke. I like to put the mod choke on the top barrel and the full on the bottom as the year goes on. I guess I would just go mod in both.

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I can go either way. I would like to see them ease into it and give people a chance to use up all their lead first. I still like lead for late season roosters, copper plated Federal premiums, # 4 for my 16 ga O/U. Have shot plenty of birds with steel deuces over the years when hunting WPA's. Even bought a couple of boxes of #4 steel, puts down a bird clean out to about 35 yards for me. I still maintain that roosters are easy to bring down, but tough to kill. I think steel would result in a few more cripples when you try a shot maybe beyond your normal limits. Steel will just take a little more discipline in shot selection.

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Go ahead and roll over let them take away lead shot and the next thing will be lead bullets and how about the guys who shot several thousand rounds of skeet or trap maybe we should just let thwm take our guns and be done with it. I would like to see someone find a lead pellet in the field I would be willing to eat everyone you can find. I see alot of replies on how guys really like #2 steel well figure how many pellets of #2 steel are in a load compared to the number of #5 or 6 shot lead and then you'll figure out why you are either missing or crippling birds do the math.By going to steel shot you are pretty much making smaller gauges like the 16 and 20 ineffective of course you could alway buy other non-toxic shot for $25 a box....not. Sorry for the rant but I really think this whole thing is being blown way out of proportion.

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So do you think that MN would ban the sale of lead shot or ban the production of lead shot for use in shotgun shells?

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What evidence do you have to support your claims? Have plenty of contacts in DNR and no one has said anything. Or are you just trying to get a rise out of people? Personally dont think theres that much difference. Have had good luck with steel. Wouldn't be the end of the world if they did banned lead.

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When pheasant hunting, I don't really care. I only get out 5-10 times per year to chase roosters anyway.... For sharptails it's going to suck, as they're a bit more jumpy than roosters, and the shots are farther out. For ruffies it's going to really blow. What am I going to do, shoot a ruffie flying through the aspen stand with #4 steel? Ha! I'm not even going to start thinking about woodcock and dove hunting with steel......

I think the opinions on this are going to vary by where people live. Ruffie, hun, timberdoodle, and sharpie hunters aren't going to like it I'm sure, while rooster hunters aren't going to mind as much.

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If you want the report go to the DNR home site and search for the NSAC, Notoxic Shot Advisory Committee, and read it. I dought that they really want much publicity on this intill they have to. The whole idea is not based on any proven studies that it will improve our wildlife populations, instead of trying to make hunting more restricted they should be working on getting dedicated funding passed in MN. I would think that the options for the 20ga and small guns are very limited, performance is reduced and are often used by our young hunters.

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Its a interesting report. But it doesnt mean there banning lead shot. There is quite a cross section of experts on their committee, including industry and wildlife. I think they will have to ban lead in the future. Other states are way ahead of Minnesota on the lead shot issue. As far as the smaller gauge shot guns, my hunting buddy uses a 20 gauge with steel and he routinely out shoots all of us. As it states in the report hunter skill is a point they considered. I think its just a matter of time before they restrict lead.

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I'm personally in favor of a lead shot ban. All it takes is one or two lead pellets to kill a bird. All you have to do is watch out the window by your bird feeder, the birds are constantly hopping along the ground picking up seeds and grit/small rocks, they do that all day long out in the fields too. Maybe you and I couldn't find a lead pellet but guaranteed birds will. Next time you shoot a pheasant, cut open the gizzard, its full of small pebbles. All birds require grit to grind their food up.

As far as performance, I've shot a LOT of pheasants with two steel. It knocks them down just fine. Maybe lead would give you a little more distance but there comes a time when maybe we shouldn't be taking those long, long shots, you end up with wounded birds. Who likes to see that rooster flying off with one leg dangling?

I also find it more convenient to shoot all steel, no swapping in and out when you're going from private to public land.

As far as cost goes, its a supply and demand thing, if lead is banned, more steel will be used and the cost will go down. And face it, if you go thru two boxes of shells hunting MN pheasants you've had a darn good year!! Is the extra $2-4 going to hurt that much?

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Quote:

As far as cost goes, its a supply and demand thing, if lead is banned, more steel will be used and the cost will go down.


ummmmm................I don't think you thought that statement through. If lead is banned steel shot will go up and bird hunting will take one more step towards being a rich man's sport.

I'm against a total ban on lead - I think the current laws are just fine.

FI

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Have you checked lead prices recently? If your a reloader its a shock.

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I think the majority of lead shot used say 7.5 and 8 is sold to skeet/trap guys. Those guys on leagues shoot quite a few boxes per year even cases. I usually buy a couple cases and make it out several times a year with the family.

I would think they would be the ones getting up in arms about it.

From what I'm reading for the average hunter it wouldn't make much of a difference in price or effectiveness.

Let's face it we live in MN the state where nothing is allowed. They (MNDNR) are already working on banning lead fishing jigs so it's logical lead shot is next. Subsidies/grants for non-lead manufacturing, exchange programs...etc. They are pouring our money into ads and programs to ban lead. It's just a matter of time before jigs and lead shot are banned.

Even though there has not been a documented loon death in MN (that I heard of anyway) they still use it in they're advertising.

I would like to see scientific proof of upland or tweety bird lead deaths before banning anything instead of just banning it because of an agenda. I think it's a rare case where any birds are ingesting lead shot from hunting in the field and dying because of it. Maybe from a trap/skeet range where there would be a large accumulation of lead shot...then maybe.

As far as prices lowering? I don't see why they would lower prices when they have the consumer cornered. All ammo is getting to the outrageous stage pricing wise with the global demands on metals.

Enlighten me if you know otherwise.

Ferny.

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I don't disagree with you CodyDawg. I'm still not convinced the lead issues is really an issue at all. Even consider an area frequented by duck hunters. Give a guy a penny for every lead bead he can find without the use of detection devices and my guess is he'd get mighty hungry. It doesn't just sit on the surface of the bottom muck and even if it did it would still be waaaaay outnumbered by the grains of sand.

Bob

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Quote:

So do you think that MN would ban the sale of lead shot or ban the production of lead shot for use in shotgun shells?


Nope. Lead fishing and hunting equip. will die a slow death, not as quickly as everyone is talking about here.

Think about it: Federal Cartridge in Anoka, Water Gremlin in White Bear Lake....While I agree a user ban is coming, it won't be overnight or anything.

I say 4-10 years away from a user ban. To some that's really fast, to others that's years away. But that's just in a user ban, not a production or sale ban.

My .02

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I've read all the posts and I don't think everyone understands the whole point....look to califorina they are trying to ban lead in bullets beacause of the condor Minnesota uses the loon as a poster child until there is real proof that birds/animals are dying from "second hand" lead the whole idea of a ban is knee jerk reaction. As far as the number of "tweety" birds dying from lead ingestion I am pretty sure fluff your house cat accounts for many times the number of songbird deaths then lead does. And for lead being $2-4 a box more if thats all it was maybe I could swallow it but try buying steel shot for 16 or 20 ga. you will pay alot more then $4 a box more for it let alone the decrease in performance. Just for @#!% and giggles take a look at a chart that shows the number of pellets in a load and compare # 6 laead to everyones favortie #2 steel you will be amazed at the differnece now figure out how many cripples you lose because steel doesn't have the down range punch lead does and I would bet you loose more birds from steel cripples then from lead poisning. Like the old saying give an inch and they will take a mile show me the proof. As far as target shooters go I shot over ten cases of shells and thats no where near as much as some guys shoot now if that all had to be steel it would be the death of clay shooting. Yeah the price of lead is high but the price of steel is higher. And if you think banning lead would bring the price of steel down just think about gas and the laws of supply and demand....they got you by the balls.... just roll over and say uncle cus they will slip it to you

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Quote:

As far as target shooters go I shot over ten cases of shells and thats no where near as much as some guys shoot now if that all had to be steel it would be the death of clay shooting.


Over reacting a bit are we?

As others have said the real culprit behind high shell prices is the increased world demand of steel and lead. I could see where trap shooters would be concerned but I think competion between shell manufacturers will keep the prices in line, if for example Federal tries to gouge on steel shells, Remington, Winchester, etc. end up selling more shells because of their lower prices - forcing Federal to lower their prices. I also think that once they can start producing 10 million cases of 8 shot steel vrs 10 thousand cases of 8 shot steel their cost per box will go down and that will be passed onto the consumer because of competition between manufacturers.

When I look the cost of shells vrs the cost all my other hunting expenses - guns, vehicles, gas, food, lodging, dog food, dog vet expenses, land leases, etc, etc, etc, - the cost of shells is pretty small. I bought 10 boxes of 3 inch two shot steel in Sept for $90, I've shot a few ducks, taken two trips to South Dakota, and shot a few roosters here in MN, and I still have a few boxes left. I've had a lot of fun with that $90 but its a drop in the bucket compared with all my other hunting expenses. Nowadays I can't even fill my truck with gas for that $90!!!!

What I'm trying to say is that using higher shot cost to justify not banning lead is bogus, shot costs are a very small portion of hunting expenses, and the small extra cost per box - if there is an increase in cost - won't affect most hunters. Raise your hand if you shot more than 10 boxes of shells this year hunting.

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I answered the cost issue in my previous post now I'd like to address the reason why issue.

Most people against it keep saying 'but lets see the studies'. They did enough studies on waterfowl to determine that it only took a couple of pellets to kill a duck. They've studied and x-rayed sick and dying condors and found out that its lead bullets from carcasses that are killing them. Lead in paint was banned. Face it, lead is a poison if ingested.

I grew up on a farm watching chickens and ducks, all day long they're scratching in the dirt, looking for food - and grit. In fact they'll die without grit to ingest and help grind up their food. Lock up a chicken with food and water and no grit and they'll eventually die. All birds need grit to survive. Wild birds also need grit to survive. Next time you shoot a pheasant, looks in its crop. Besides corn and other seeds, you'll see little pebbles. These pass into their gizzard which works to grind up their food.

When you're out hunting, do you see birds hopping along the ground or thru the trees? Yes, you see them all over. Are their any places where you don't see any birds? No, whether its upland or wet or forest, some birds inhabit that environment. When you shoot that shotgun with lead pellets, those pellets are going to be lying on top of the ground where some bird can come along and ingest it along their seeds and other grit. If one or two lead pellets can kill a duck, what do you think it will do to a small bird? What do you suppose happens to that dead chickadee? Something else comes along and eats it, maybe that lead shot doesn't kill it but it will make it sick.

Guys keep saying 'go find a lead pellet'. You and I would have a hard time finding one but from my experience watching both domestic and wild birds, they WILL find them because thats what they do all day long, hunt and peck along the ground.

Face it lead is a poison, if you love to see nature and appreciate seeing all live critters, why wouldn't you support a ban on lead shot?

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I must admit, you present a good argument. What is difficult to understand is why only waterfowl have been the issue and not all birds. In other words, why didn't they just ban lead at the onset? As you stated, birds need the grit and they spend a lot of their time getting it. That's why they are on the roads. You'd think they too would be ingesting lead pellets and such.

Bob

Edit: there is a little difference to be considered too. A lead pellet that drops onto a road or other land surface remains on the surface for a much longer time than one that drops onto the muck bottom of a wetland. Between wave action and the soft bottom I would expect the lead pellet to all but disappear rather quickly whereas the one on the shoulder of a road may stay accessible for years or until the next super hard rain or road work.

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Nothing kills cleaner than copper plated lead!!! Just my opinion, I guess I'll use it til they tell me I can't..not going to loose sleep over the government's grand plan. If it's for the greater good I guess I'll have to comply.. frown.gif

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