Is the DNR taking the right approach to Deer Management in MN?

[smnduck]

I have to agree with shackbash. I think way to many people watch "horn porn" on TV and think thats the way it is and should be everywhere. The hunting shows are no differant than the fishing shows,catching,shooting the biggest all the time.

[Shack]

Am I correct, in the late eighties, you got one buck tag and that was it. Unless you submitted a form in Sept. for a lotto doe permit. You where very luck for two deer, but the most a hunter could get was one buck. I could be wrong and it may have been different in other areas of the state, but it was how it was where I started deer hunting. Plus there was a ton more area around you could hunt and it was easier to get permission and the population was much less in this state (I do not know about hunters out in field). I still was skunked on good land, (my fault as a learning hunter).

It seems to me DNR has made more deer available to a large population and dropped the restrictions dramatically in the last 15-20 years, with less land available to the average Joe hunter. Spells a good job to me.

P.S.

Thanks SMNDUCK

[lcornice]

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Thanks for the response lcornice. I guess I was looking more overall if you could tell the number of does registered in 417 so far, all weapons combined to compare it to last year. Not sure if that's possible and don't want to make you do extra work so I can wait for the detailed report to come out.

Also, not sure if I'd want the season changed either, though it might lighten the pressure to shoot the first thing that comes along. I know if I haven't tagged out by gun season with my bow, I'm looking for the sure thing opening weekend.

BTW, I'll also be interested to see the number of deer taken by crossbow this year since they were allowed in gun season. Do you break that number down or was it just tagged witha firearms tag?

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PM me with your email address. Also, there won't be any way to determine the crossbow kill. The legislature merely authorized their use. There was no license or season created (thankfully). Therefore, the weapon used won't be captured when you register the deer.

[chucker34]

How do I do that? Honestly.

[lcornice]

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How do I do that?

Honestly.

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Oops, looks like you can't private message on this forum. Last year, there were 998 antlerless deer registered by now and there were 2,200 lottery permits allocated. This year, 800 lottery permits were available and 520 antlerless deer have been registered. So, the reduction in harvest tracks well with the reduction in permits.

[realtower]

Icornice, looks like you have spent some time on bowsite

(PM) LOL

[Scott M]

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GENETICS and NUTRITION play the biggest part in "growing trophies"

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Definitely key parts but AGE is the primary ingredient.

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SnS, Your personal observations probably hold true and I'm sure you've shot some old bucks. But nutrition is the #1 ingredient, heard that in a powerpoint presentation a few years back in school by....lcornice. Just mentioning since I heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Why the big fuss over big deer racks?

Not trying to sidetrack the thread, but if we are talking about QDM the way to get older bigger bucks is letting them pass, no doubt. But if you are scouring the country looking for big bucks you look in areas where you can find them feeding well.

Love reading this thread, if only everyone gave this kind of feedback at the DNR website surveys.

[lcornice]

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Icornice, looks like you have spent some time on bowsite

(PM) LOL

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Bowsite? Nope, never heard of it. I learned that lingo from a ford diesel site. This is actually the only hunting board I've posted on.

[nine-tiner]

I was thinking about this again last night and did some quick math and memory searching. Our hunting party size has been between 6 and 8 people for the past 20+ years. Over all that means close to 200 years of hunting experience. If we had to wait for an 8 point buck to shoot we would have harvested exactly 1 deer over that time. In fact I think over that period we have harvested around 10 total antlered deer. Have we saw larger deer, yes, but I would say it is about ever other year that someone in the group sees an 8 point plus. I know if I would have had to wait for an 8 pointer or better I would have given up hunting a LONG time ago. To me its the experience, not the BRAGGING rights that come with what someone deams a trophy.

An article from a study in Texas, probably the first state to take deer size management to a high level. This is a 27 year study.

http://www.towma.org/article_info.php?articles_id=3

[chucker34]

Thanks much lcornice. That's good to hear. I would have preferred to taken a buck so that doe registration number would be one lower but I just didn't see many within bow range this year. Now, hopefully most of those surviving does will get bred and we'll start seeing improvement in numbers in the next few years. I can't remember the last time I saw a doe with anything less than twins and once in awhile triplets. I think the habitat and mild winters have led to prime conditions for a healthy herd in our area, just need to have the hunting pressure taken off a little.

[sticknstring]

nine-tiner Thanks for the link - that's a good article. Always learning new things from this site... great wealth of information no doubt.

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But if you are scouring the country looking for big bucks you look in areas where you can find them feeding well.

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I think this thread pertains locally to MN... If I were hunting in other areas of the country where it's given that small bucks will be passed, one could search out the best food sources but back home here where 35% of the hunters shoot the first legal deer that's within range... things are different.

I've been working with food plots the past 2 years now and have planted apple trees trying to offer the best nutrition I can to the herds but haven't noticed much in the benefit of antler growth YET. I've noticed you've been inquiring some yourself... It's definitely rewarding watching deer graze at all hours of the day in your plots. But that's another topic all together... Give it a shot.

[realtower]

I just dont get the argument about why you take small bucks when in most areas its just as easy or easier to take does. Im sure you dont brag to your buddies about the spike you shot and unless you can cook the horns then there is no reason to shoot a buck then the pride and to show of your trophey. Most of the guys arround here that shoot little bucks they end up in the trash. I see the argument if you have no deer and need meat because thats what are family lives on. But growing up in the farm country I know there are times in the winter when there are 50 to 100 deer in a field so its hard for me to belive. I comes down to change, no one likes it until you see the results. Ask the states that made the change what they went through. Also Nine tiner your math is wrong if you had to wait till those small bucks got over 8 point then soon all those little ones you shot would be 8 or bigger. you just did not pass any. Also by the way in my book age is the most important with QDMA because its the easiest to control there is no food plots there is no cull bucks there is just pass on the young ones. So in my book age is everything.

[sticknstring]

Results!

http://www.startribune.com:80/anderson/story/1554300.html

This was in the Strib yesterday if you haven't had a chance to take a look...

[chucker34]

That is exactly what I'm talking about - choice. If the desire to grow big bucks is there, it can be accomplished by neighbors coming together to work together. Not by government imposed rules telling them what to do and that won't work as effectively as private citizens working together toward a common goal.

Of course, as the article states, it won't and can't work everywhere because not everyone wants it. And that is the beauty of democracy. Guys like this can get together and grow big bucks because they want to. Other guys want to get A deer, any deer each year, and they can too because government doesn't tell them they can only shoot one with six points that weighs over 200 pounds and isn't an albino.

[Shack]

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"We wanted bigger bucks," Andy said. "There were a lot of deer in the area, but a lot of does. We wanted to change that. We also wanted to develop better relations with our neighbors. Deer hunting can make enemies of neighbors."

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This is a group of people who want monster bucks in their area. I fell this is not a point the DNR should have to be in charge of.

I have been lucky enough to have access to a very large area of prime privet hunting land. Beside the addition of a bow hunter this year, I have been the sole gun hunter of about 80 acre plot that is surrounded by a 300 acre private land swap/pastor area to the north and about 700 agriculture land to the east. I have talked with land owners of these properties and no one hunts this land as far as the land owners are concerned. I am dang near right in the middle of a 1000 acre area, with no hunting pressure. Now I hunt a very thick and is a swampy area. I have hunted this land for 5 years and have not seen a "monster buck". I have heard rumors from neighbors and other locals, rubs and scrapes. I have never connected or seen a monster buck.

This year (after reading the abundance of info on FM), I am taking a very new

And different approach to next years hunt. Things on the list are a brushed cleared trail to stand area, so I can leave blow a week before opener and have a quite and easy walk to stand area. A new permanent stand, that will be enclosed (kind of a nice tree fort with carpeted stairs leading up to stand. Food plot area with adequate brush cleared shooting lanes and some other things that will come down the road this spring and early summer. I would like a wall mounter and I am going to better my odds to make this happen. Plus I can almost guaranty I will be bow hunting next season.

I have seen and shot a good number of deer off of this land. It is ¼ mile from State and Federal wild life area. I do not feel my quest for my “Trophy Buck” is a DNR to blame type of an issue. It is a deer hunter get off of his but and do something about it issue. I am that deer hunter. Now public lands are a different thing, but I have seen very nice bucks taken off of local public land this year, plus a ton of nice does and smaller bucks. I think if a hunter truly wants to have that “Trophy Buck”, they have to put in more effort on their own and find that buck. Vie it be getting into a duck boat and going to oak islands no one gets to, putting on a pair of waders and cutting threw swap area and streams to get to a spot no one hunts. These are type of things a “public land” hunter needs to do. The deer/bucks know where it’s safe to romp and room during the rut and use that to their advantage. As far as for the DNR to provide a “monster buck” for a good percentage of deer hunters who cut in a half mile or two, is a large task to ask of them. It like anything else in this life we want, we have to put in extra effort and work for it.

[smnduck]

Doesn't trophey buck mean something like once in a lifetime,or along those lines. It's pretty tough to manage a wild herd of animals an expect the results that you are dreaming about.

[Hammer Handle]

Agree, who wouldn't say "Yes" to more bigger bucks?

Tell them the cost in the question. Tell them "Will you support NOT shooting small bucks so that we can get more bigger bucks?" Over 60% said "Yes" now. It will drop to well under that...maybe even 30% or less. And, how many deer hunters take this survey? Many of the meat hunters don't look at teh website...while maybe a high percentage of sportsman do.

I know of someone who raises elk and deer for "shows" and people to pay to hunt them. That is how they get big racks. Wow...what a trophy...and I called him right in

[Hammer Handle]

If I owned 5000 acres and as much money as that family and can invest that much time hunting...I would hope to get a big buck too.

How many hunters do they have? How many got big bucks? What is the ratio to hunters/land?

Is it really that much better...that is what I want to know.

A trophy for a weekend hunter like me is a deer. Period.

I have shot several large bucks (over half a dozen that were 200+ pounds dressed or close to it). I don't have any mounted....

[chucker34]

Hammer Handle, that is my dream. Whenever my wife asks what I'd want to do if I won the lottery, I say buy thousands of acres, manage it for deer and help friends and family who still have to work hunt it with me. That would be the best job ever.

"What are you doing today?"

"Oh, going to put in a 10 hour day at the factory. How bout you?"

"Well, I though I'd referesh my mineral sites in the morning and then check the trail cams at lunch before tilling up some food plots in the afternoon." : )

I could handle that for the rest of my life.

[Hammer Handle]

(sigh)

I want to go home from work now....

Better yet, I would buy a small lake with the woods around it....

[archerystud]

SnS, Sounds like we are on the same page, just let'em get a little older.

A "trophy" means differnt things to different people. Most people in this state would love to shoot a 3.5 year old buck or better. I think most people wouldn't mind shooting something like the one to the left here.

Our 120 that my dad and I manage is our best shot. I have a pretty good job but I'm not sure if I can come up with the extra 4880 acres. I've been preaching to the neighbors for 15 years but to them brown is down.

[nine-tiner]

realtower

My math is fine some members in our party have been hunting close to 50+ years, 3 of us for 25+, and others 10+. We would love to "pick-n-choose" what we shoot, but as I statede a good year is SEEING (let alone getting close enough) 4 or 5 deer PERIOD...therefore managing for a trophy doesn't fit into our plan. I would really love to see someone GUARANTEE that a 4-1/2 year old deer is going to be 8 points or better and score 140 or better. What happens to all those 4-1/2 year old 7 pointers that score 140...gotta let them walk...

Bottom Line...If you and your neighbors can agree to manage the heard in your area to your liking go for it. In the mean time we will continue to harvest as we do.

[nine-tiner]

"Many of the meat hunters don't look at teh website...while maybe a high percentage of sportsman do."

so HH are you saying that the folks are there to put food in the freezer are not sportsman?

Be carefull when judging what others do!!

[sticknstring]

120's a great start. Obviously one doesn't need 5,000 acreas to practice QDM. How in the heck would you decide which stand to hunt??? If only I had those problems...

As someone mentioned(possibly the potlatch post), it would be fun to get a group of dedicated hunters together on a lease big enough to actually practice QDM. Work on food plots... get some blownup aerial photos... and start whackin some bald heads for starters! Who's in???

[Hammer Handle]

No, I definately do not say the people that hunt for the freezer are not sportsman...definitely not. Otherwise, I would not be a sportsman as I am a meat hunter.

But, many people feel this way. I should have picked better words...that is for sure!!

[archerystud]

A 120 is a nice start, we have a 43 as well. It still isn't enough. 120 doesn't come close to holding a buck for most of the season. It's a start but I would say if I could triple that I would have a really good chance of growing some nice bucks on a consistent basis.

All I have to do now is win the lottery!

[vister]

i think the mn dnr screwed everything up in the first place, but i cant complain. we can now shoot 5 deer in our zone, an intensive harvest zone. cross the road and i can take an additional 2 more during early anterless. My point, back in the day you had to apply for and draw an anterless permit in order to take a doe. well, what did people do with those tags? Hunt for the trophy buck, and only bagging a doe at the last second if the season was about to expire. meanwhile, all of the hunters who didn't draw their anterless tag could only take a buck.

If you had to apply for and draw an anterless permit, why wasn't it only a doe that it could have been slapped on. why could you put it on a buck? i believe that is why the deer populations are the way they are today. very high in over half the state. sure there have been mild winters the past few years, but that effects the pheasant population more than a deer herd!

[96trigger]

Vister, I think a lot of small bucks got slammed by people that wanted venison, but were not successful in the lottery. When the lottery was the norm, just about anything with antlers was a trophy. My how things have changed in the last 20 years.