Anyone else think Grouse are WAY DOWN?

[Coach]

Just got back from Two Harbors/Finland area. I am blaming most on the weather, fog/drizzle/rain all weekend long, we never saw the sun and the trails were never dry. Did not see many birds, shot at two, got one(no dog). We did get a snowshoe, that was nice. Good luck to all.

[Big R]

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I've found that even in good grouse habitat areas the grouse are down but then again there are some good pockets here and there. We had a killing winter where there wasn't any snow for roosting. A weeks worth of -20 took its toll.

I've been observing grouse for 30 years and had never bought into the 10 year cycle. IMO winter roosting snow cover and wet cold Springs have more to do with grouse numbers. Predation with lack of rooting snow also takes its toll. Now get this, besides the native predators on MN we get the Snowy Owls that are forced down from the North because lack of food(lemmings) take a lot of MN ruffed grouse. Combine that with a winter without snow roosting cover and they're sitting ducks. So grouse populations are caused by a number of things, not a mysterious 10 year cycle. How many times have we heard were in the upward trend of the 10 year cycle and the next year the bottom falls out?

Whats the Ruffed Grouses # 1 winter food source? If you said Aspen buds your repeating what George Gullian wrote.

In the last 20 years or so theres been a huge demand for Aspen. We have more Aspen stands now then ever.

Whitetail deer benefited greatly by that new abundant food source. Guess what game bird hasn't? Fact, we have less Ruffed Grouse now then when the Aspen boom started 20 years ago. Coincidence? Its been my observation Aspen buds are not the Ruffed Grouses # 1 winter food source. Birch buds are. Mature Birch are gone after a clear cut and replaced with Aspen.

The late George Gullian(Mr Grouse) wrote the book on Ruffed Grouse. I wonder is he'd change his mind after seeing the effects of huge Aspen stands on Grouse today?

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If you're going to deconstruct his research at least get his name right. It is Gordon Gillion not George Gullian.

And I am sure your anecdotal evidence is far more superior than Gillion's meticulous life research. /sarcasm

[jbdragon17]

Hunted up north of Grand Rapids/Deer River this weekend. The birds are out there...Even in crappy weather. About 4 of us actually hunted for 2.5 days and ended up with 14 birds. We missed WAY more. I would say at least 40 birds were moved. Most of the birds were out in areas that see VERY little pressure.

[tacklejunkie]

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I've found that even in good grouse habitat areas the grouse are down but then again there are some good pockets here and there. We had a killing winter where there wasn't any snow for roosting. A weeks worth of -20 took its toll.

I've been observing grouse for 30 years and had never bought into the 10 year cycle. IMO winter roosting snow cover and wet cold Springs have more to do with grouse numbers. Predation with lack of rooting snow also takes its toll. Now get this, besides the native predators on MN we get the Snowy Owls that are forced down from the North because lack of food(lemmings) take a lot of MN ruffed grouse. Combine that with a winter without snow roosting cover and they're sitting ducks. So grouse populations are caused by a number of things, not a mysterious 10 year cycle. How many times have we heard were in the upward trend of the 10 year cycle and the next year the bottom falls out?

Whats the Ruffed Grouses # 1 winter food source? If you said Aspen buds your repeating what George Gullian wrote.

In the last 20 years or so theres been a huge demand for Aspen. We have more Aspen stands now then ever.

Whitetail deer benefited greatly by that new abundant food source. Guess what game bird hasn't? Fact, we have less Ruffed Grouse now then when the Aspen boom started 20 years ago. Coincidence? Its been my observation Aspen buds are not the Ruffed Grouses # 1 winter food source. Birch buds are. Mature Birch are gone after a clear cut and replaced with Aspen.

The late George Gullian(Mr Grouse) wrote the book on Ruffed Grouse. I wonder is he'd change his mind after seeing the effects of huge Aspen stands on Grouse today?

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If you're going to deconstruct his research at least get his name right. It is Gordon Gillion not George Gullian.

And I am sure your anecdotal evidence is far more superior than Gillion's meticulous life research. /sarcasm

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I have read Mr. Gillion's work ages ago. It isnt just aspen per say but the age of aspen thats important(and sex). It has been a while but his research was that grouse in the winter want the buds of male aspen around 20 or so years old. That's why small cuts are preferred over large blocks of clearcuts. So, there has been a boom in the logging of aspen since the mid 1980's but they are large blocks of cuts as small cuts would not be worth doing for the logging industry, profit verses expense. Think about were you seem to see the most grouse. I have seen very few grouse in acres of acres of single aged aspen but see many more on those edges or mixed areas. I agree with ST about the aspen harvest verses grouse numbers but all the research I have ever read does support the cycle and the male aspen as the top food in winter. I think the large block aspen harvest in the last 20 years has not been the best for grouse as it does remove alot of those 20-30 year old male aspens. IMO. By the way, the last nice day we had I got over 60 flushes and hit 4. They are up this year but the weather has been crappy

[uplander]

Just got back in town...Hunted around Grand Rappids on Sunday and saw close to 50 birds in about 4 hours...It was crazy and the setters were rockin. Our shooting was suspect, well at least mine was and we ended up with 4 grouse and three woodcock. I was so wet and cold out there yesterday that i thought I might freeze to death. Even in the pouring rain I still put up 8 birds in about 2 hrs

Thanks 2thepoint for coming down and meeting us. Your dog did an awesome job. Can't wait to do it again

Some areas are down and some are hot..If your area isn't producing time to pull out the map and put some miles on that truck.....

Good luck...uplander

[Surface Tension]

Big R, thank you so much for the name correction, as if its matters. As far as your dig.

"And I am sure your anecdotal evidence is far more superior than Gillion's meticulous life research. /sarcasm"

Your sarcasm doesn't ruffle my feathers. Keep believing a sea of Aspen will is the answer and that there is a mysterious 10 year cycle. I know better. Lots has happened to our forests since the early 80's. A lifetime of research has ended before that change. What would Gillion say now? My observations aren't casual or limited to Grouse Season, its year round and from living 49 years in Prime Grouse Country. They're also unbiased observations so I'm not out to prove anyone wrong or myself right. They are what they are. Throw out what you've read and start from where I've started, then come back after 40 years and tell me its all just "anecdotal evidence".

[1tofish]

I would say in the NW part of the state the numbers are down. Last week seven of us took off, on 4-wheelers, from Fourtown and went North to Bemis Hill via the Morehouse Trail. 71 miles later we saw our first grouse, just before dark. Camped that night at Bemis. The next day put on another 80 miles (East and back to Fourtown on the Rapid River Road) and seen 2 more. No, we didn't push much bush, but we were riding good trails, trails I had shot grouse on the year before, and during mid-week (no hunting pressure at all). We got 2 out of the 3 Grouse.

I've also done a lot of walking NE of Grygla and have yet to shoot a grouse in that area. I have kicked up two the first weekend and haven't seen one around the area since.

Combination of no snow this winter and a wet spring????

[Shack]

I have never been a big fan of the "10 year cycle" idea! A ton of things factor grouse population, even in a so called “up swing cycle year”, that could bring that “up swing year” to its knee's in a month or two. Not even to mention a man made situation that causes a given area's population to swing!

Minus all that, I have had some great grouse years in so called “down cycle” years! I rotate my grouse hunting grounds and haunts to find were they are at! Learning the bird is the key factor in bagging the bird. For one hunt the same area over and over, again and again will surly have to wait for the local grouse population to recover (from hunting and other weather or environmental concerns). For a hunter to wait to hear of an up swing year, head out to spot and expect to see them flushing like gulls over a garbage dump, that hunter is in for a hard learning event!

I do not duck hunt, pheasant hunt or other small game hunt, because to be a good grouse hunter and bag birds during almost every hunt (and get out a ton of times a year), it takes all of your time and effort learning were they are at and getting the birds. Even learning to find those birds that are in areas that a text book or scientist’s report would say they are not in or not even mention them at all! It all realms around food, water, other grouse and (a very good point of) predator bird migrations and populations in a given area (I.E. Owls, hawks, eagles and other birds).

Good fraise to live by is “Some catch’em and some don’t” .

The leaves are fall'in. I might get out for a spell this weekend!

Good luck!

I will give a hint on what I look for! Song birds and tweety birds! If they are abundant in an area, the grouse are sure to follow! Also look for berries, gravel and water! Another great combo!

[Shack]

I think the 10 year cycle was invented to help sell hunting licenses . It gets people excited and gets them out to buy hunting permits and go hunting!

When I was younger, I loved to hear the term of “up swing cycle year”. It got me out more and helped me learn more and come to love the sport of grouse hunting more! Thus having me upgrade to the sportsman combo every year now. More money from me over my life time, because I would hunt the up years with old grandpa and my dad, learning the sport that gets me out every year (no matter what the cycle report says)!

I think the same thing about drumming counts by DNR. I pay no attention to them. Again, when they are up, people buy licences!

[tacklejunkie]

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I think to 10 year cycle was invented to help sell hunting licenses

. It gets people excited and gets them out to buy hunting permits and go hunting!

When I was younger, I loved to hear the term of “up swing cycle year”. It got me out more and helped me learn more and come to love the sport of grouse hunting more! Thus having me upgrade to the sportsman combo every year now. More money from me over my life time, because I would hunt the up years with old grandpa and my dad, learning the sport that gets me out every year (no matter what the cycle report says)!

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I do believe there is a 10 year cycle. I have seen no credible research to disprove that. Having said that, I don't believe it is the end all. There are also alot of other factors. I started hunting in the mid 1970's. The grouse were in an upswing. By 1982, they crashed. A stint in the Army kept me out of the woods and in 1987, they were up. In 1989, there were tons, I mean tons of them. Crashed in 1992, built up throughout the 1990's and crashed in 2001 or 2002. Grouse are capable of surviving our weather extremes, minus cold wet springs for chick hatches. Then there is the drumming counts, which is a whole different can of worms .

[uplander]

I guess I don't know don't care! I'm going hunting reguardless of count and speculation...Sounds like you are as well shackbash......Everyone else can stay home over bad reports and low drum counts ..........I'll still go and see for myself.... year after year......gotta love it..

Hunt hard, shoot fast..uplander

[Shack]

Thats the plus side of a so called "down year". People stay home!

Here, here!

Its like lake Mille Lacs, when I want to go up and catch fish, I do! When I don't, I don't go! No matter what reports say!

My grandfather had a great saying, you got'a go hunting or fishing on opening day, just so they can not say "Ya should a been up last week"

[uplander]

I hunt alot of off days, but have not seen a ton of other hunters..Have the weekends been busy?

[Big R]

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I think the 10 year cycle was invented to help sell hunting licenses

. It gets people excited and gets them out to buy hunting permits and go hunting!

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That makes no sense. When it is the bottom of the cycle not many licsenses are sold. Wouldn't they want you to believe it is a good year every year. Now the deer population - that's another story.

[Shack]

Just a joke!

9 times out of ten when a follows anything it means a joke!

[2thepointsetters]

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I guess I don't know don't care! I'm going hunting reguardless of count and speculation...Sounds like you are as well shackbash......Everyone else can stay home over bad reports and low drum counts ..........I'll still go and see for myself.... year after year......gotta love it..

Hunt hard, shoot fast..uplander

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try to get that picture sent to my email so I can post it here. Last Sunday was the funniest day I have ever had hunting grouse. I cant wait to run our dogs together again, that was very impressive.

[fishroger]

I took several of Mr. Gullion's wildlife classes in the 70's when I was going to forestry school. He wasnt just a academia person, is was a very observant field person. He always said in nature, change is constantly happening, nothing stays the same, and nothing is written in stone. I believe in the 10 year cycle, I also live in prime grouse country and have seen grouse fluctuate up and down to almost nothing. It might not be exactly a ten cycle , it can certainly vary. There are so many many factors involved. Gordy made that his lifes work , he had evidence to back his claims. The 70's are very similiar to the 90's. 1972 was a very big grouse year in this area. It crashed for some years after that. I believe in the cycle.

[Big R]

Didn't Gullion also think their was a "super cycle" every 20 years. So 70's and 90's were very good/very bad compared to the lesser flucuating 60's,80's, and 00's.

[BentBarrels]

Hunted east of cass lake this weekend.

The grouse are WAY down this year in the areas around bemidji/cass lake. My group has put in 100+ hours this year. We have shot less than 20 grouse.

It seems whatever the DNR says for birds is 180 degrees different.

In 2002 our group shot 252 grouse. This year we will be below 40.

Just terrible, terrible hunting. The worst i have seen in 17 years.

Going to chase the roosters around the rest of the year.

[daredevil_tipped_w/leech]

After a full day a field North and East of Winnie area. Walked 7,000 miles of trails. 4 points. 2 shots. no kills.

Not going to keep me home but I'd sure like to know what is going on....

[uplander]

Sonds like you guys need to head south!! Stay out of that region.I've been hunting east and south of that area and doing better than average.....Sometimes on fourth down you have to punt...expand your territory...If a coyote was hunting for 200 hrs and not finding any food he would simply move on to a place where food was more plentiful....or die...keep after em..good luck ...uplander

[Tim_Anderson]

Funny story about "the grouse that could".

I was hunting yesterday with a friend. We split up to walk some remote trails and do some "brush-busting". I shot a grouse in very thick cover, and when it fell to the ground, it was flopping around beating it's wings like a chicken with it's head cut off. I made my way over there to get the bird, and saw it walking/running away. I shot it again, and it tipped over and started flopping again. As I got close, the bird was laying on the ground with it's wings outstretched. It picked up it's head to look at me, and when I reached down to pick it up, it flushed right in my face and flew away! Now, on any other day that would have been an awesome close flush, but in this case, I was just not expecting it. My gun was in the crook of my arm, and I was lucky to get a snap shot off before he disappeared. 20 minutes of searching and I came up with nothing.

So beware guys. "Supergrouse" is out there, he's got his BB-proof vest on, and his sole intent is to mock us!

We flushed about a dozen grouse, got 2, and obviously should have had a few more. I've hunted the Blackduck area, the Remer area, and the Emily area. From what I've experienced, the numbers seem to be up, but they sure are spooky...especially up in Chippewa Ntl. Forest. I've found that even the birds out in the woods well off the trails have been tough to get close to. Putting on lots of miles walking and always enjoy it tho, no matter what.

[Scott M]

I shouldn't jump to any conclusions but my weekend sure was slow. I hear the numbers are going up for 3 years and haven't seen any difference in the northern part of Chippewa Nat'l Forest that I hunt. Probably because everybody and their dog hunts it every day. Those Forest Service Trails never get a rest. It will only be worse next weekend (MEA).

Even when I got off the trail and busted some brush I didn't see much, and we worked a dog the whole time. At least I found some amazing deer rubs and scrapes by getting off the beaten trail....

[brittman]

I would suspect weather has not helped. Friday was just perfect and I spent the afternoon with my son and older dog in the grouse woods.

We moved 22 grouse in 3 hours. Took home 4. I suspect could have shot more, but did not fire my gun until my son shot. He shot his first bird!

No woodcock. Typically we would see a dozen or more in this area in mid-October.

[MikeYager - Suzuki]

Obviously this varies with area. I and many others have found what is considered premium locations do not have the bird numbers we expect.

[brittman]

I hunt ruffed grouse is 6 different areas of the state. Only been to two so far and have been satisfied with numbers seen.

The severe drought over the summer may have altered the location of grouse broods or possibly worse - reduced brood size because of the lack of insects.

Heat, wind and rainy weather have not helped hunting success. How many nice fall days have we seen since grouse season opened? Especially on the weekends?

Typically spring/summers that are drier are better for upland birds ....

Last two weeks of October will be the tell tale ..........

[uplander]

Out fillen the sky with lead today....Plenty of birds seen one woodcock in the bag. lots of dog work though so it was a success...For once could it just not rain on the day I plan to go hunting....just once. The birds were still out there though no one gave them the memo to stay inside today. Would be nice to stay dry, but you gotta go when you can go I guess.......Shoot the birds not the trees..Thats my advice to myself.....uplander

[Ranger Rick]

I feel sorry for some of you guys in MN. This past weekend we flushed 150-200 grouse. Shot 15 and 15 woodcock with 5-7 guys hunting.

Grouse populations DO fluctuate on a roughly 10 year cycle. Science hasn't explained all of it. They need Aspen in various age classes as others have said here. Large clearuts aren't the best, but clearcutting it the ONLY way to regenerate Aspen. This past weekend we flushed a lot of grouse in older [30-40] year old, very large stands that contained a lot of fir in the understory. Despite the upswing in population some of you may be experiencing poor success because of poor nesting and rearing conditions. A lot of cold rain when the new chicks are running around will result in very sparse population. I also agree with a couple other posters here that those of you who never get off the trail are missing the boat. Grouse will be found along roads and trails where they are getting grit, but we flush a lot of birds way off the trail, too. And sometimes those trails have been pounded by someone before you.

[uplander]

OK Ranger Rick where in Wisc. do we need to go for that kind of action.......Sounds like a trip I need to take with rifle season aproaching.....North, Central, East.....give us a hint please..........uplander

[Shack]

The day took a turn for the better! I am going try it this afternoon and see what is going on around my area. I will bring the boys and dogs!