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Nova

Is he 6 months or 1.5 years old

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This young buck is spending all his time with this doe and 2 fawns. I have several trail cam pics and watched him last friday throught the spotting scope. He never leaves the side of these 2 fawns. He is just a little bigger than the other fawns and smaller than the doe. Can a first year deer have spikes or better? The pic is decieving because he is closer to the cam. He isn't that much bigger than the other fawns right now. here's the pic

buckdoe2fawns.jpg

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I have never seen a fawn with more than 1/4-1/2" nubbins. I would be quite sure that is a 1 1/2 year old deer. I think it is highly improbable to be a fawn.

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I agree with fivebucks, he is NOT a fawn

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Maybe it is a Doe. I have a few pics of a doe with horns. the only reason I know it is a doe is because I see no tools in the shed on my pics wink.gif

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I'd say he's 1.5 for sure and was probably a fawn from the doe in the backgroung the year before. it's a little peculiar that he's still hanging around mama, but you'll see young does hang aroung their mom until their second year quite often.

i've never heard or read of a fawn buck producing hard antler.

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There are does with antlers. It is rare, but not rare enough for it not to be considered. I shot a doe that had nubbins on the top of its head. No protruding points, but definitely formation. It did have female sex organs.

My guess is that he was born towards the end of last year. He may be more immature than some of the other 1 1/2 year old bucks. Give him one more year before you decide he is inferior.

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Definitely a 1.5 year old. He's just a mamma's boy, or maybe is living with his mom again after losing his job or something. smile.gif

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When i processed deer at Nowthen meats, we would see doe's come in with nubs and spikes. Nothing that big that I can recall. It is more common than one would think. Cross bread in high population or other defects is what I was always told by my supervisors.

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I found this on DNR web site!

During the 2002 deer-hunting season, Tom Schneider of Willmar shot a white-tailed deer with a polished 13-point rack. Nothing strange about that. But something was unusual: The deer, by all appearances, was a doe, with female genitalia, an udder, and teats.

Why do some does grow antlers? How common are they? Are they really does? These are some of the questions hunters ask as deer such as Schneider's trophy focus attention on these unusual creatures. With the exception of caribou, females of the deer family do not normally grow antlers. Yet reports of antlered female white-tailed, black-tailed, and mule deer go back more than a century. Most of these have velvet-covered pedicels or small spikes with some branching, and can produce fawns. The scientific literature also contains reports of a few deer that appeared to be females except they had hard, polished antlers.

The physiological process of antler development helps to explain how antlers can develop in does. White-tailed deer antlers are made of bone. They grow from pedicels ("buttons") on the skull. Annual antler growth begins in mid-March to April, triggered by the interaction of increasing daylight, testosterone, and the hormone prolactin. During early development, the antlers are composed of blood vessels, nerves, and a hairy skin called velvet.

In August or September, a second surge of testosterone, the most important stimulant to antler growth, is released, causing the velvet to die and the bone to harden. The deer eventually rubs the velvet off, and the antlers become polished. By late December or early January, the supply of testosterone declines and a separation layer forms between the antler and pedicel. The antlers drop off shortly thereafter. In March or April, the process to begins again.

Researchers have noted that females can have a testosterone surge caused by a hormone imbalance, first pregnancy, tumors, or degenerative conditions of the ovaries or adrenal glands. This single surge can cause the growth of antlers in velvet.

Indeed, researchers estimate one in every 1,000 to 6,000 white-tailed females produces antlers. In Pennsylvania, researchers reported one antlered doe per 3,500 antlered deer. A 1985 study in Alberta, Canada, documented that eight of 517 adult does had antlers (about 1 in 64). The reasons for the high number of antlered females in this region: perhaps because every harvested deer was examined, or there may be a genetic predisposition for female antler growth.

Postmortem examination by researchers around the country indicates that does with antlers in velvet tend to be reproductively functional, or to have complete but malformed reproductive tracts, or to be true hermaphrodites in which the ovaries are more developed than the testes.

What about "does" with polished antlers? For the velvet to die and the antlers to become polished bone, a second surge of testosterone is necessary. Reproductively functional females will not get the second surge. Deer that appear to be does with polished antlers are almost always reproductively malformed males, which will have a second testosterone surge that causes the antler velvet to shed. Postmortem research on these deer shows most are cryptorchids, hermaphrodites with male organs predominant, or pseudohermaphrodites (animals with external female genitalia but internal male reproductive organs). Because its antlers were large and polished, Tom Schneider's 13-point deer likely was a pseudohermaphrodite.

If you kill what you suspect is an antlered doe, save the internal organs, then contact your local wildlife manager or veterinarian to request a thorough examination of the animal. You might be surprised by what they find.

Christopher DePerno, DNR Farmland Wildlife Populations & Research Group and Jonathan Jenks, South Dakota State University

Heres the DNR link

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I found the sheds from this deer (Shneiders). It was about a 135" nine point and then jumped to a 163" Non typical with triple droptines the next year! I about crapped when I saw it, and it was a doe!?! shocked.gif skinny face and no neck, but a heck of a rack! crazy.giflaugh.gif

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Actually, I believe that the rare doe that does sport antlers does not shed them. They carry them for life!

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This one did! If you consider it a doe? It had a dried milk sac.confused.gif Ya, most stay in velvet, but this one went hard horn and shed! wink.gif

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Quote:

I'd say he's 1.5 for sure and was probably a fawn from the doe in the backgroung the year before. it's a little peculiar that he's still hanging around mama, but you'll see young does hang aroung their mom until their second year quite often.

i've never heard or read of a fawn buck producing hard antler.


very comon with last years fawns

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I think if it is a buck, i'd take him out of the gene pool before it is only knee deep.

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Kind of what I was thinking!

I like smaller deer for the meat. This one could be a good weeder out and produce some very tasty cuts.

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Quote:

I think if it is a buck, i'd take him out of the gene pool before it is only knee deep.


There is a FAR too common misconception that shooting bucks like this helps the gene pool. If everyone shoots small bucks to "get them out of the gene pool" then there's far fewer bucks that ever grow into big bucks.

More than anything, the most important thing bucks need to have nice big racks is AGE. A 1.5 or 2.5 year old deer is never going to have a big rack. But let a buck like the one in the photo get to be 3.5, 4.5 or 5.5 years old and 99.9% of the hunters would be thrilled to take him.

Next most important after age is having good nutrtition and good health. Genetics comes after that. Genetics has more to do with the shape and characteristics of the antlers than the size of the antlers, and this buck is too young to make any kind of judgement about what his antlers will be like in a year or two.

The idea of controlling and managing genetics isn't practical in a state like Minnesota. MN is made up of numerous small chunks of private land, from 10 and 20 acre parcels up to several hundred acre parcels. The deer you are trying to manage are spending the majority of their life on someone else's properties and are being managed and hunted by several other people. To truly manage the genetics of a herd, you need to have them inside a high fence, or do it in a place like Texas where land holdings are measured in 1000's of acres and a deer does not cross many property lines in it's lifetime.

I'm not telling anyone to not shoot small bucks if that's what they want to do. If your goal is to fill your tag no matter what you shoot, or to shoot a young deer for the meat, then I am 100% in support of what you do. I'm just saying that "managing genetics" is not a legitimate or biologically sound reason to shoot young bucks.

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Nice post Perch!

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I would still harvest him!

Not mention the good meat, but the fact he is still hanging out with (possibley) mom!

Who knows? This could be the makings of a major stud buck! But the bucks that hang out in the 10-20-300 achers of land around my house, do not hang out with their moms.

I will look again at his rack, but I like young bucks and does for their meat.

I figure a trophy for the wall costs money! I can process the meat for nothing and make as much jerky as I want to and just have to buy the seasoning. Why not harvest this buck!

Good Luck!

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I'm not saying to not harvest him, I'm just saying "getting him out of the gene pool" isn't the right reason to harvest him because you can't control the gene pool.

I watch deer in my food plots quite a bit and use trail cameras (in the food plots, not over bait piles). Family groups including young bucks often hang out together in spring and summer, but come early to mid October the does run their young bucks off (to prevent in-breeding) if they're still around. The does run their young does off for the breeding season but meet up with them again after breeding.

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Perch,

I get your drift!

One can take out a runt, but one can not controll a gene pool!

No matter how good humans think they are, they are not God!

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I have absolutely no intention of harvesting this deer for at least 2 more years. We are trying to manage 200 acres of ours plus nearly 500 more neighboring ours to get some quality bucks. I was just curious if this buck could be a first year buck due to the fact that he is hanging around with mom and the kids. I have always thought that does run the fawn bucks(not fawn does) off in early fall the first year. Doesn't sound like it could be a first year deer though.

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1 1/2 too big to be a fawn from this year. Still needs about 2 more years to mature.

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Just another thought. What ya could do is just take a doe this year, wait one more year and see what this bucks growth rate from year to year is. It might be suprising...or then again it might not. But I think it could be a good opportunity to get some great info.

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That is what I was going to say. Take a doe, especially for meat. The worst thing you could do is try to justify shooting a small buck for meat. A balanced heard is way more productive than culling 1 1/2 year old bucks that don't have 6 point racks or bigger. The best way to "manage" your heard is to make a bet with your hunting party that the biggest deer. Biggest means weight, not rack size. This way people are shooting mature bucks and does. That is how you manage a heard and if anyone tells you differently they are listening to the wrong people. You will never shoot big deer if you shoot 1 1/2 year old deer year after year.

My group has rotating land, this means that we hunt one property one year and then it is left alone for 3 years. We go to the next guys property the following year and hunt that and then give it 3 years off, and so on. I know this is a unique situation, but the deer are very impressive. If you shoot a buck that scores under 150, its a fine that is put towards food plots. The only exception is if the deer is older than 6 1/2 years old. It works for us. The biggest deer over the last 3 seasons scored 153, 158, 172, 183, 191 and one was shot and found in the spring while shead hunting that scored over 198 typical. No one could tag it obviously so it could not be recorded. No I did not shoot any of those unfortunately. The thing is in 3 years and 12 guys, we only shot 9 bucks, but we shot over 125 does. That meat went to land owners, farmers and donations. If you give them a chance to grow you will be happy.

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Quote:


No matter how good humans think they are, they are not God!


grin.gif

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