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kgpcr4

This worries me more than CRP loss!

51 posts in this topic

I just read on line that hunters are down 10.7% in the last 10 years. The number one reason is lack of affordable places to hunt. The average guy cant afford thousand dollar pheasant hunts for a few days, If he want to bring his kids its a HUGE expense. 3000 for a few days hunting. Pay to hunt is going to kill our sport. Please dont support it! you can see how much land is already locked up, available only to the people with big money, THe number of hunters goes down and we loose our voice in congress and elsewhere. Soon we will be such a small minority that our voice will not be heard and then the fat lady will sing.

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Pay to hunt is going to kill our sport. Please dont support it!


KGPCR,

What did you fight for? Free hunting or FREEDOM? Posting this is the equivalant of me posting to tell people not to support our troops in Iraq and that they are killing our chances for freedom and security.

UGUIDE gives discounts to Military (active AND retired), Seniors and Disabled. @ youth per group can hunt and stay for free.

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UGUIDE

I do take offence to my post saying i dont support the troops. I spent my time in the Marines and you will search far and wide to find a person who supports them more than i do. i would not favor banning pay to hunt just encourage people not to participate. I dont know how you made the connection to not supporting pay to hunt with not supporting out troops,

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There is a time and place for everything. There is an obvious need for guides and outfitters, otherwise there would not be so many. Overall, I would have to agree with kgpcr4 that the more pay to play operations that come into an area, the worse it gets for the average guy. Could I afford to pay for a guided weekend hunt? Sure, I would find a way. The problem is that I want to hunt more than 1 weekend and I really do not need to be guided.

The only thing that I can see helping this in MN is some type of a walk in program. Where landowners will receive compensation for letting people hunt, but the land does not become off limits to the general public.

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And those of us that work 70+ hour weeks and don't have time to scout? A few hours wages to secure a spot is peanuts.

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Bryce,

Peanuts for leasing land or funding a walk in program? I am not sure which one you are referring to?

There is no doubt that many careers are taking more and more of our time from the things that people want to do.

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UGUIDE - I don't think this was a personal attack on your business. For the average guy that wants to go out and help recruit a newbie to the field just isn't like it use to be.

I think pay for hunting has it's place and time. If I got myself in the right mind set, I would try it out once just to see what it is all about.

I would like to see more public spots be open to hunters so that we can continue to recruit and retain hunters.

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Well said Captain! Bryce why not just head to a game farm? its about the same thing. I am not trying to be a smart a** with that question i am just curious. Game farm = Pay to hunt in my book. I do go to the game farm to train my dog. Its great for that. Other than that pay to hunt is the same for me.

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There is a time and place for everything. There is an obvious need for guides and outfitters, otherwise there would not be so many. Overall, I would have to agree with kgpcr4 that the more pay to play operations that come into an area, the worse it gets for the average guy. Could I afford to pay for a guided weekend hunt? Sure, I would find a way. The problem is that I want to hunt more than 1 weekend and I really do not need to be guided.

The only thing that I can see helping this in MN is some type of a walk in program. Where landowners will receive compensation for letting people hunt, but the land does not become off limits to the general public.


Supposedly, the MNDNR is working on a Walk In Program right now, not sure where it is at, but I have heard they are in the discussion stages.

As far as the "pay to hunt" crowd ruining the sport, I think it has already done great damage to hunting. For one, it is the main reason I no longer goose or duck hunt. The areas where we hunt, we used to shoot the farmers pigeons for him, and trade a few birds for the permission to hunt his land. Well, his son got greedy and now charges over $2000 for the season. I can't justify that expense.

The one thing I have noticed with the majority of the pay to hunt people is that they are NOT the vocal majority when it comes to supporting the rights. They are they type that pays to hunt, because they can, but do not go out of their way to support the sport. I am not saying this is across the board the case, but the majority of the cases I have seen have been that way.

There were 8 guys that hunted the land with us (total of 10), now there are 2 guys hunting the land.

I think you can compare the pay to play type hunters to the corporations versus the family farmers. Not many of the family farmers remain, it might be a bit of a stretch, but there is some merit to it.

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I agree - access is the biggest issue.

Many magazines have published recent articles discussing access issues, etc...

If you read the editorials in Pheasants F mag.

PF - while they lead in habitat acquisition,CRP defense, and local chapter group initiatives are taking much heat for all the Guide/outfitter adds "sold" in their magazine.

It will be interesting to see what road PF will take ... the road down the middle is not necessarily the easiest.

CRP support among hunters may eventually wane if perceptions is the land and the pheasants are just for $150 - $500/day hunters.

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The walk-in access program would work in Minnesota. I believe the largest opposition in MN is from people that lease land now. They do not want competition.

While the state will pay less, the idea of "hassle-free" and liability free will play into the decision process of each landowner.

I know landowners in both Kansas and North Dakota that have placed land in the walk-in program because;

1) the extra money is nice

2) they feel good about letting people hunt on their land - many times it is the landowners neighbors or kids from the nearby town that are denied access (not just big city hunters) - because of leasing... the walk-in program solves this local "relationship" issue.

3) people do not have to track them down and ask during harvest - the land they allow hunting on is open

4) liability - both real and percieved is now the state's burden.

The walk-in program allows for prime land to be opened to hunting... land that would likely never become public owned land.

Finally - the program does not need to compete with land acquisition. Let the local PF or MDHA groups raise funds and acquire the land they view as prime. Let families that want to donate land continue to do so.

Also remember that all MN DNR Management areas require money to keep maintained - burning, tree control, weed control, signs --> DNR should not accept all land into public ownership - just because they can.

Regarding the walk-in land, the landowner still maintains the land - except for signs ...

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I don't believe that "pay-to-hunt" is killing our sport. I do belive parents not getting their children involved in the outdoors is killing our sport. Children and adults want instant gratification, they are unwilling to work for their success. And to them what defines success? A limit of birds? Or is success quality time, in the field with friends and family you enjoy, watching a trained dog work, rigging decoys with your buddy 2 days before the hunt, after the hunt having a beverage with good conversation while cleaning birds. I believe most beginning hunters have no idea what a successful hunt is all about. Sure it's great to shoot a limit, but I have had many great hunting experiences without taking my limit. We experienced hunters need to mentor beginning hunters!

I believe game farms are great. It's not cheap, but neither is a round of golf or a Vikings game. It is a great place to train a dog, hunt if your time is limited, get a young hunter interested. The conservative in me says it's ok to charge people to hunt your land - you paid for it! I do however have a problem when they get goverment subsidies to improve there land (or get paid for marginal land) then in turn charge hunters. I do like ND's program (I think it is called CROP?)where landowners get paid for CRP and allow access to their land laugh.gif In MN we are very fortunate that there are many acres of public hunting land. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe we lead the nation (except for Alaska) in public land per capita.

I have been invited to a couple places in SD where the guys brag about being done and in the hot tub having cocktails by 3pm, these places are too costly for me, and being in the field for only 3 hours doesn't make sense to me. If I want that, I can save money by going to a hunting preserve close to home. But for others, it is what they like to do. And if that keeps them involved in the sport, then I would have to support their style of hunting, just not participate.

I believe the key is to get as many people involved in our sport as we can, especially children. Mentor these people by instilling good ethics and hunter responsibility. Sorry for being long-winded. I will now jump off my soap box!

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Fishwithteeth (and others),

Well said and good discussion. you quote I echo is this part....

"I believe game farms are great. It's not cheap, but neither is a round of golf or a Vikings game. "

Pretty hard to get good access to free golf around the Twin Cities. Why? Ground they build them courses on costs $20,000+ an acre.

I think walk-ins and other public programs are great. Look, North Dakota just signed up their 1,000,000 th acre in the walk-in program. Their land is a lot cheaper and less productive than MN or IA and in some areas of state MN DNR will not be able to tempt landowners to sign-up when it comes to paying their property taxes or compared to crop yield returns.

Competition is great and needed. Local and federal governments should work hard to provide the paying public (license sales) competitve alternatives to commercial operations.

UGUIDE will generate close to $50,000 in license sales for state of South Dakota and neither I nor the 10 landowners I partner with will see a dime of that $ come back to us to go towards habitat investment or any other expenses for that matter. Enjoy! Cuz it ain't going into our wildlife plots. Not sure where it is going but that is where the consumers of state offerings can participate since those organizations are here to serve YOU.

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Is that the PLOTS program in No. Dak.? We hunted some of that last year and did well. I dont think MInny has a program like that. As far as getting young folks interested in hunting, I think alot of the young folks arent exposed to outdoors activities like the older folks were. It seems like they have many more irons in the fire then we did at that age. Unless someone introduces them to hunting/shooting sports at an early age they dont get into it. I see some of the high schools in the twin cities suburbs have trap and skeet clubs and there trying to get them sanctioned as a sport and are having some resistance to it.

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UGUIDE: Why would the state of SD pay outfitters money for conservation easements (food plots) not open to hunting?

The $50,000 generated goes to maintain the SD G&F staff, game wardens, etc.... I am sure if you or one of your landowners wanted to enter their property into the SD walk-in access program - the $$ would move in your direction.

All non-resident hunters pay the same license fee to hunt wild pheasants. Tough to really know if the 500 or so people booking with UGUIDE would not hunt SD anyway.

At about $150 per person per day for lodging and land access, plus the CRP payments - I believe you and your landowners are earning adequate income

... Actually your program is fair (maybe a little high) - but reasonable especially when you compare this to the $250/day to $600/day operations that operate across SD. I have no issue with your operation and someday may contact you to hunt.... I want a place to hunt with family and friends - but without a bus and without guides and dogs. I can do it myself and will not pay hundreds per day to be done in 30 minutes shooting half-wild birds with some guide (if you can really call them guides?? .... rambling ...............

that said - when joe average sees all the CRP and 2 million birds shot - but cannot participate - at what point does CRP support decline and the ADM and Cargills get their additional millions of acres of corn and beans??????????

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Yes, PLOTS, thank you. As I get older my memory fails grin.gif

I agree you have to get kids introduced at an early age. If you remember, they used to teach firearm safety in the schools, but no longer. I guess it is somewhat up to the parents what they feel is important to introduce their children too. I thank my lucky stars every day that my father introduced me to hunting and fishing!!! I was fortunate enough to also be introduced to baseball, football, hockey etc., and played most through high school. And after high school my passion for the outdoors won out - not to mention at 5'7" and 145 lbs. I wasn't playing football anymore grin.gif. I think children are being short-changed, not only by not being introduced to the outdoors, but being required to play year round hockey, baseball etc. By the time they get to the college level everybody was an all-star on the high school team - it's hard to make the team. Hunting and fishing is a life-time sport, and in some ways gets better with age. I am 42, and I think I look forward to each hunting season with more enthusiasm as I age. I don't know why. Maybe it's because I can afford to hunt different places or because I work many hours, each hour in the outdoors is that much more precious to me. I just think it is so vital if our sport is to continue, to introduce young people into the outdoors, and make it a positive experience, at an early age.

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5'7" and 145 pounds. Some of the best high school football players still operate in that range. Hit hard, hit low, keep the feet moving....

Yes - balancing hunting with other activities is not easy. Nearly all fall sports now operate on weekends. No so when I was 12 - 18. Friday night after the game ended we were free to go until Monday at 3:30 practice............

PLOTS would work in MN.

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Also if we quit using the guys who charge the big money to hunt more people would hunt as access to land would be easier. also without the big guys locking up all the land a door knock would get us in the field. If you are going to spend big money to hunt go to a good game farm. Its cheaper and gaurenteed! Uguide its not personal its just that if you look at how much land the Pay to hunt people have locked up its getting out of hand. a good tough winter with a few ice storms and blizzards will take care of things as well. then look out. Birds will not be like this every year its the easy winters that have been a HUGE help. Paying it hunt is paying someone to post thier land and not let anyone else hunt it!

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I agree that a "PLOTS" type system would work in MN and be very beneficial to both hunter and land owner. I hope our DNR can put a similar program together. I still believe there is room for both pay-to-hunt hunters and traditional hunters in our State. Mostly because there is so much public land. However, if it became as prevalent as it is in SD, that would not be good. I agree one bad winter could devastate pheasant hunting shocked.gif, but there are grouse in them dar woods grin.gif. I think the PLOT program is a good middle of the road solution - farmers win, hunters win. As far as pay-to-hunt outfits, there are places for them too. Some people want easy access, easy walking, guides, someone elses dog, someone to clean their birds etc., thats ok too. Just not for me. But they still contribute to the resource through license fees etc. What could be done is to limit the number of given guides in a area, or pay-to-hunt operations. Sorry if I sound like a communist blush.gif, I am really conservative laugh.gif. There are no easy answers, but I believe there is room for all of us to enjoy the outdoors.

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its getting alot harder to find land to hunt on any more, it used to be all u needed was to knock on a farmers door give him a handshake, tell him you'd like to hunt and thank him, now days with all the guide services and other urban cowboys out playing john wayne for the weekend throwing out big $ to all the farmers, its more likely for that farmer to grin and ask how much your willing to pay to hunt his land, then to just say sure go kill as many as u can like in the past

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UGUIDE: Why would the state of SD pay outfitters money for conservation easements (food plots) not open to hunting?


90+ % 0f any states land is privately owned. Meaning not state owned. State has learned that maintaining high quality wildlife habitat is time consuming and expensive.

2 facets of funding. To produce the wildlife and then the taking of it. Not much taking going on if you can't produce and sustain a population. Pretty hard to do on 5% of total acres especially when corn is taking over.

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Peanuts for both. I am in favor of more walk in type lands. I also use the knock on door method but if the land looks good and there is a price tag to it, cash is flowing. Game farms and paying to get on good land holding wild birds are not at all alike.

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I would agree that game farm birds and wild birds are not the same. However, they are great for dog training and were established on the whole idea of pay to hunt.

For those that decide to shell out money to gain (buy) access, that is their prerogative. It is not for me and that is just my opinion. Will I need to consider leasing land some day? Maybe, but that will only be when it is impossible to gain access by any other means. The future of hunting depends on quality opportunities being available to the majority. I am hoping for a bright future.

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Couple things: Montana also has a great program that opens ranch and farmland to hunting. It is simple and it works. It may be where ND got the idea for PLOTS, although it works differently.

Face it fellas, the day for pay-to-play is here. Some of us old codgers knew it was coming 25-years ago, but it has arrived faster and impacted more heavily than we thought, largely due to the population growing faster than anybody thought. You simply CANNOT stop leasing; a man has a right to do what he wished with his land. You COULD, presumably, attempt to put a lid on the number of so-called "guides" and outfitters by implementing various requirements etc. and if you were fearful things are getting TOTALLY out of control you could begin leaning on politicians to quit giving money away by the bagful for CRP and other subsidies to landowners who then turn around and lease their hunting land after using PUBLIC money to "conserve" it. It's a deep and complicated issue and it is here to stay. We can all sit around and pound our gums about it, but it AIN'T going away. Sorry. confused.gif

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Your comments while valid and true do not answer the question.

Why would the state pay outfitters money for land closed to hunting when other landowners provide land for walkin access?

Hunters, outiftters, the state game & fish, DU, PF, etc.... they are all benefiting largely from an Ag Program called CRP.

I do not believe that outfitters are entitled to a percentage of the license fees that they MAYBE generating.

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