Legal firearms

[BobT]

We have a discussion running here.

Quite often while I'm deer hunting I'll come across a grouse or other small game. I am licensed to take either. It is unlawful to take grouse with a rifle caliber larger than .22. Is it permitted to carry both my 30-06 rifle and a .22 pistol at the same time while deer hunting?

Bob

[rubber duck]

yes

[irvingdog]

Just not practical....

[Grant Pearson]

It's legal, but the DNR probably wouldn't see it that way due to the fact that you're deer hunting and it's illegal to have a firearm smaller than .23 caliber while deer hunting.

[fisherking01]

It is not illegal to posess a .22 while deer hunting. Illegal to shoot a deer with a .22 yes.

If you are licensed for small game and deer, you may simutaneously hunt both. .22 for small game, larger than .23 for big game.

[Grant Pearson]

Quote:

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It is not illegal to posess a .22 while deer hunting. Illegal to shoot a deer with a .22 yes.

If you are licensed for small game and deer, you may simutaneously hunt both. .22 for small game, larger than .23 for big game.

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All I meant was that if stopped by a CO, he will question why you have a .22 in your possession and there's a chance that you will have to do some slick talking to make sure you walk away without a ticket. I know many cos that will write a ticket for having the wrong caliber for deer hunting. remember, they've heard many excuses many times over.

[Dave S]

the best thing to do is to side with caution and just don't worry about taking the grouse while deer hunting. Is it really that important?

During a turkey clinic, a hunter asked the CO about carrying a handgun with him due to the talk of Mountain Lions in the area. He was told that if you have a CCP (Conceal Carry Permit) you're ok. Otherwise, expect to walk out of the woods with a ticket. As was mentioned, they hear all kinds of excuses and you'd be hard pressed to convince a CO otherwise.

[Benny]

It now states inn the big game regulations that it is illegal to possess a hand gun even with a CCW permit while bow hunting.

I suspect it will be illegal to carry a .22 while big game hunting as well.

Now I think it is legal to use a deer legal caliber shot gun to hunt both at the same time.

Benny

[Grant Pearson]

Quote:

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It now states inn the big game regulations that it is illegal to possess a hand gun even with a CCW permit while bow hunting.

I suspect it will be illegal to carry a .22 while big game hunting as well.

Now I think it is legal to use a deer legal caliber shot gun to hunt both at the same time.

Benny

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It is, but when deer hunting, it can only shoot a single projectile from my understanding.

[Benny]

[quote

It is, but when deer hunting, it can only shoot a single projectile from my understanding.

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That might be, not sure any more .

Might be best if some one emails the DNR and ask them out right!

Benny

[BobT]

Obviously, this is not a simple question as it appears the same discussion is going on at this site.

One thing I noticed is that there is a misconception about the conceal and carry law. This law does not forbid carrying of pistols. It only provides for the right to carry a pistol concealed and a pistol held in a holster on one's hip is not concealed. In other words, except for areas where firearms are required to be unloaded and cased, it is perfectly legal for me to carry my .44 in my hip holster where everyone can see it.

Keep in mind that in many city limits, it is unlawful to carry a firearm unless it is unloaded and cased. A hip holster is not a legal case and therefore would be illegal in this situation.

My position is that it is legal to carry both the .22 and the legal big game rifle. I don't see how it would be impractical. When I'm sitting on stand, my rifle is not always held in hand. It would be very easy for me to draw my .22 to take a grouse, rabbit, whatever and it would not be cumbersome to have it on my hip.

I don't believe the law states that it is illegal to have a small caliber weapon in possession. What if I decide to just go small game hunting during the firearms deer season even though I'm licensed for deer? If it was illegal to have a small cal. in possession, it would be illegal for any licensed deer hunter to go small game hunting during the deer season. I don't agree with that.

Bob

[BobT]

I just received a reply from a Tim Hage at the DNR website.

According to him, it is not legal for a licensed deer hunter to have an illegal caliber firearm in his possession at any time during the deer season therefore, it is not legal to carry a .22 pistol along with the legal firearm while hunting.

It is my understanding that it is okay to have shot shells in possession while slug hunting however and this seems a bit contradictory to me. Any ideas why it might be permitted to have shot shells in possession but not a .22?

Bob

[Grant Pearson]

Quote:

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I just received a reply from a Tim Hage at the DNR website.

According to him, it is not legal for a licensed deer hunter to have an illegal caliber firearm in his possession at any time during the deer season therefore, it is not legal to carry a .22 pistol along with the legal firearm while hunting.

It is my understanding that it is okay to have shot shells in possession while slug hunting however and this seems a bit contradictory to me. Any ideas why it might be permitted to have shot shells in possession but not a .22?

Bob

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Because people would start using buckshot for deer, which is illegal in MN.

[BobT]

What? Your reply would support NOT allowing shot shells while slug hunting and that would make more sense. The question was, why is it okay to have shot shells in possession during the firearms deer season when it is not okay to have a .22 in possession? That's the contradiction.

Bob

[Surface Tension]

It states very clear in the Regs. Page 24

Possession of Firearms Before, During, and

After the Firearms Deer Season

No person may possess a firearm or ammunition outdoors during the period beginning the fifth day before the open firearms season and ending the second day after the close of the season within an area where deer may be legally taken by firearms (see page 31), except:

• A person who has a valid firearms big game license in possession may hunt big game during the open season with a firearm and ammunition authorized for big game.

• Possession is also legal under these conditions:

a) An unloaded firearm that is in a case or in a closed trunk of a motor vehicle.

A shotgun and shells containing No. 4 buckshot or smaller

diameter lead shot or nontoxic shot.

c) A .22 caliber rimfire handgun or rifle with .22 caliber short, long, or long rifle cartridges.

d) Handguns possessed by a person with a carry permit.

e) On an authorized target range.

[MOBY RICHARD*]

How about during bow hunting seasons???

[BobT]

Thank you, Surface Tension.

That was the ruling I was having a hard time finding. I guess I just blew right by it in the handbook. I wonder what rules Mr. Hage has been quoting me?

From this it is quite clear that I can carry a .22 pistol on my hip while hunting deer.

Bob

[vitalshot5]

Reread what surface tension wrote..... where does it say you can carry both....My neighbor who is also my local CO says he'll ticket you everytime for carrying a .22 pistol and a legal firearm for deer hunting. It doesn't matter whether you have a conceal and carry or not.

[Surface Tension]

vitalshot5, that come under the heading.

"Possession of Firearms Before, During, and After the Firearms Deer Season"

Which I failed to paste but went back and edited.

No you can't have a handgun(firearm) while bow hunting for deer.

Here are the 2007 Regs

Handguns:

"Persons age 18 or older may carry a handgun in the woods and fields or upon waters to hunt or target shoot. Persons under age 18 may carry handguns for hunting if in the actual presence or under the direct supervision of the person’s parent or guardian, and if they meet firearms safety requirements (see page 20). A person may not carry a

handgun while bowhunting except a person may take bear by archery while in possession of a firearm. Questions

regarding handguns should be directed to local law enforcement authorities."

"The “Concealed carry or permit to carry” provisions apply to certain hunting activities. Persons with a permit under this law generally may carry their handguns uncased and loaded while hunting, and while traveling to or from hunting locations by motor vehicle under the hunting firearms transportation laws. However, possession of

the handgun while 'shining' or while hunting deer by archery would still subject the possessor to the provisions of these laws (see page 32,

artificial lights, for more info).

P 32

"Artificial Lights

A person may not cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight, or other artificial

light onto a highway or into a field, woodland, or forest to spot,

locate,

or take a wild animal while possessing, either individually or as

one of a group, a firearm, bow, or other implement that could be used to

kill big game. The exceptions to this regulation are:

a) A firearm that is unloaded, cased, and in the closed trunk* of a motor

vehicle (see definitions of “unloaded” and “cased,” page 23); or

A bow that is completely encased or unstrung and in the trunk* of

a motor vehicle.

c) A person hunting for coyote or fox from Jan. 1 to March 15 may

use an artificial handheld light under the following conditions:

• While on foot and not within a public right of way

• Using a shotgun

• Using a calling device

• Not within 200 feet of vehicle

• With or without a firearm or bow, no person may cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight, or other artificial light into a field, woodland, or forest to spot, locate, or take a wild animal between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. from September 1 to December 31.

• With or without a firearm, between one-half hour after sunset until sunrise, a person may not cast the rays of a spotlight, headlight or other artificial light to spot, locate, or take a wild animal on fenced, agricultural land containing livestock or poultry that is marked with signs prohibiting the shining of lights. The signs must: 1) display reflectorized letters that are at least two inches in height and state “no shining” or similar terms; and 2) be placed at intervals of 1,000 feet or less along the boundary of the area.

• It is not a violation

of this law to shine lights while doing any agricultural,

occupational, or recreational activity, including snowmobiling,

not related to spotting, locating, or taking a wild animal.

• With or without a firearm, between the hours of 6:00 p.m. and 6:00

a.m., a person may not project a spotlight or hand-held light onto residential property or building sites from a moving motor vehicle being operated on land, except for the following purposes:

1) safety; 2) emergency response; 3) normal vehicle operations; or 4) performing an occupational duty.

* If the motor vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm or bow must be in the

rearmost portion of the vehicle.

Note: This regulation does not apply to taking raccoons or tending traps according

to all other regulations in this booklet.

2007 Minnesota Hunting Regulations"

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Where does it say you cannot???

You brought up a good point, but I think it remains a little hazy from the info in the rule book, and this is not likely the full explanation of the law.

If COs have been told to ticket under these circumstances, they will, unless there is a court decision otherwise.

I could be incorrect, but I do not think hunting has a limiting effect on the Carry permit.

And to clarify, it is now a Carry permit, not Conceal and Carry as the original 2003 law was. I do not however, believe it means carry in your hand wherever you wish.

I think it is supposed to be either holstered or concealed.

I think you are not supposed to display in your hand, anywhere and everywhere you wish in Public, except when under imminent threat of serious or deadly harm, as this could be construed as a threatening act, which could cause a defensive counter action.

[Surface Tension]

"My neighbor who is also my local CO says he'll ticket you everytime for carrying a .22 pistol and a legal firearm for deer hunting. It doesn't matter whether you have a conceal and carry or not."

I'm not dissing COs and thank God for the work they do but you or your neighbor is incorrect.

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Frank, the page 32 stuff you have listed, only relates to when a light is being used.

The paragraph you have above it, sounds like we cannot possess a handgun while bowhunting deer, but I doubt it would sustain a court challenge with a carry permit.

[Surface Tension]

MOBY RICHARD, your right. The Carry Conceal term is an old and incorrect. Its a permit to carry. You can conceal or carry anyway you like. Could be a rifle, shotgun, handgun or all the above at the same time for that matter.

Concealing is being discrete. Not that your hiding it, your just not advertising the fact.

[Surface Tension]

Quote:

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Frank, the page 32 stuff you have listed, only relates to when a light is being used.

The paragraph you have above it, sounds like we cannot possess a handgun while bowhunting deer, but I doubt it would sustain a court challenge with a carry permit.

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Your right the carry permit will challenge that and be easily overturned.

[tealitup]

Do you need to carry when your bowhunting?

Well, I guess one time I wish I would of had mine. When some -um' folks- would shoot at everything in the woods. Including a squirrel in the tree branch next to me.

[BobT]

I agree with Surface Tension. The law does not prohibit carrying both firearms. The CO can ticket all he wants but if he tickets me, he'd have to prove his case in court because I'm quite sure I would challenge his interpretation.

At least I would so far as I have not found any law that forbids this action.

Bob

[vitalshot5]

He stated to me that you can carry a legal caliber pistol for deer during arms season but cannot carry a non legal caliber such as a .22 during arms season......I'll the take the word of the guy writing me the ticket over a couple a guys who want to twist the laws the way they want them to sound....thanks

[MOBY RICHARD*]

Not trying to twist... just correctly interpret...so I'm not left twisting... in the hot air...

[96trigger]

Quote:

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It states very clear in the Regs. Page 24

Possession of Firearms Before, During, and

After the Firearms Deer Season

No person may possess a firearm or ammunition outdoors during the period beginning the fifth day before the open firearms season and ending the second day after the close of the season within an area where deer may be legally taken by firearms (see page 31), except:

• A person who has a valid firearms big game license in possession may hunt big game during the open season with a firearm and ammunition authorized for big game.

• Possession is also legal under these conditions:

a) An unloaded firearm that is in a case or in a closed trunk of a motor vehicle.

A shotgun and shells containing No. 4 buckshot or smaller

diameter lead shot or nontoxic shot.

c) A .22 caliber rimfire handgun or rifle with .22 caliber short, long, or long rifle cartridges.

d) Handguns possessed by a person with a carry permit.

e) On an authorized target range.

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I think that some of you are interpreting that law wrong. The above law is telling you what is considered a legal firearm to carry while in the woods DURING gun season. The law is not "in addition to a legal big game firearm".

It enables non big game hunters to still hunt, just NOT while they are hunting big game. The above law also explains why you can have birdshot smaller than number 4 buckshot during the month period of firearm season. Its telling you that its legal to use a shotgun not intended to take big game.

However, nowhere does it tell you that you cannot have both. That said, I will listen to the CO, I do NOT believe that it is legal to posses both in the woods, much like it is not legal to take a firearm in the woods for turkey hunting, while also having a bow in the woods for archery deer.

[BobT]

Stringer, where does it say that you cannot carry both? Are you sure it is we that is misinterpreting or are you adding your gut feelings to the law?

It says that a .22 or shotgun with shot smaller than buckshot is permitted. It doesn't say "as long as that is the only weapon you have in possession" nor does it say that one is allowed to carry only one weapon.

Bob

edit: I think if I were being cited, I'd have to ask the officer what statute he/she was referencing for the citation. I haven't found one yet and the officer is not the law, he/she only enforces the law as they believe it is stated. Doesn't mean they are correct. They make mistakes as easily as we do.