Coyote/Wolf

[surewood]

Anybody else had a rise in coyotes and wolves. I seem to see more every year now. It used to be rare for me to see many predators in the northwoods but now I expect it. I guess I'll have to do my part to reduce the numbers. I also hope they let the MN do the wolf management and not the federal gov. as the wolf pop. is starting to do a little to well as pets are coming up missing, and wolves are being spotted in agricultural areas.

[Powerstroke]

There has been a somewhat steady increase in predator populations, but I think the biggest reason for more sightings comes down to the loss of habitat, more people being in the woods since the population density in those areas is going up, and the concentration of their prey in the undeveloped areas.

I do lots of travel in the arrowhead region and have never seen a bear or a wolf before yet everyone talks about them like they are everywhere.

In areas where people are building and developing and taking up habitat, both predators and prey are feeling the crunch. If deer start hanging out in your backyard you can bet that the wolves will eventually follow them there. Yes a wolf may swipe a pet, but can you blame them, they are lots easier to catch than an able-bodied deer.

Also, don't be surprised if deer show up in agricultural areas. Most people think of the wolf as a woods species. Its not. The wolf used to be in 2/3 of MN and the Gray wolf species extends across over most of the central US historically. It has thrived in the north woods because of the cover and abundance of game there. As populations increase and new packs form outside of the current areas they will spread into their historic ranges outside of north woods. Its normal. The wolf was around long before people came here and tilled up thousands of acres for corn. The same deer we like to hunt is the deer the wolf likes to hunt. We all need to learn to live together.

I certainly wouldn't want a coyote or wolf to make off with my dog, but people need to realize its a true possibility when they build in wild areas. Wild animals have made off with domestic animals since domestication began.

We can hunt coyotes legally and I think everyone should try it sometime. Wolves are not currently open and who knows if they ever will be. It would be interesting, but we know the ANTI's tend to have a larger voice (and deeper pockets) than the hunters. There are ways to deal with "nuisance" animals, but seeing more predators doesn't mean they are all bad.

I hope people keep this to a "hunting" discussion and not a sensational topic of "blame the wolf for my poor hunting".

[harvey lee]

Good read Andy.

[Powerstroke]

One thing I wanted to clear up when I said I never have seen those animals....

I'm not saying that people who do see them arae making it up or blowing it out of proportion.

The places I visit in the north and NE portion of the state are always in the wilderness and national forests, not in or near the towns. I like to get away from the crowds and therefore I am in areas where the animals all have room to roam. I saw 2 bull moose on my recent trip to the BWCA, several deer, many rabbits and saw one grouse and many were heard drumming. As far as game goes I've never seen so much.

If the game are doing well than we must expect the predators to do well. Its a natural cycle that we observe in many populations like the rabbits and grouse.

I really would like to do some predator hunting as to me it provides the same thrill and allure as turkey hunting if you can have them respond to calling.

MN is unique as we have the healthiest wolf herd in the nation and the top wolf researchers in the nation. It is true that the feds make many of the decisions, but be assured that the state has quite an input into the decisions made. I think its great that the wolf has done so well and I think once everyone gets over "crying wolf" that we will see we can get along fine.

I have a brochure for Quebec hunting and the wolf and coyote are considered small game!!!

[sysco_joe]

Hmmm...visiting the northwoods and living there are quite a bit different I think.

[Powerstroke]

So it begins........I realize I can't stare out the kitchen window eating cheerios every day, but if one spends a decent amount of time up there than I think I can say that I have an idea of the areas I frequent.

Thanks for adding something constructive by the way.

[Lunker]

Coyote numbers really have increased(data does back this up) and their populations have spread across the country and state. Main reasons seem to be loss of habitat as described above, but also the increase in prey numbers(deer for example), and the decrease of pressure. Remember a few decades ago coyotes and wolves were shot on sight, now there isn't as much pressure on the animals and we are seeing population increases.

HOWEVER, wolves are another story. Yes, the wolves have finally gained a foothold here and in other states. We hear all of these people complaining about wolf problems, so you'd think there were 50,000 wolves out there like the nuisance bears. The DNR estimated in 2005 that there were 3,020 wolves in the entire state. They are still a rare animal. They are not the problem people make them out to be(yet). I will state that I do support a management plan for wolves.

I find that Wisconsinites are even worse in their wolf hating. Many of my peers in the natural resources program regularly state that they would rather have the wolves killed and would do so on sight. And WI only has around 550 wolves!

This is not an issue of overpopulation and livestock depredation yet, we are still seeing the effects of the mindset of our grandfathers wolf management plan.

[Scott K]

I have a cabin in NW wisconsin, in any given evening you can look out on the field edge and spot several wolves each night, sometimes 15-20 of them. This area used to be filled with deer every night, not anymore. 550? I question their numbers. But they are the pros, one thing I know is if there is a large amount in one area, there needs to be something done. I think it is ok to have a plan for them, but to have a large amount in one area is only asking for trouble. My .002, and I cant imagine that is what they planned on doing.

[Powerstroke]

I am in no way denying that they are there. I totally believe it and thats cause we know MN has the best wolf population in the US.

If you're seeing 15-20 animals than it is about average. A pack size can grow as large as 30+ animals. If an area cannot sustain the number of wolves than they will drop off in numbers or move on.

One of the greatest and on-going predator-prey studies occurs naturally on Isle Royale in Lake superior. There are resident wolves and resident Moose. The populations fluctuate back and forth naturally and has not been influenced by humans.

I totally agree that a new mindset needs to be found with wolves. They are doing well and are here to stay so if we can get a good management plan in place we can have deer and wolves in the same areas.

[surewood]

I read an article in my predator magazine by Judd Cooney. He has some numbers on the population and sheds some light on how they tried to take the wolves off the endangered list in 2005 I beleive but the anti's put their money to work to keep them on the list. I will get the magazine tomorrow to get the exact numbers. one thing I remember him mentioning was about the Elk being decimated in Yellowstone from wolves. Not that I think all the wolves should be killed but I think management plans need to be put in place and I think they would be if it were'nt for politics of course.

[picksbigwagon]

I read that same article last night. I think (dangerous I know) that management is going to be difficult since only the alpha male and alpha female mate for that pack. If you kill one of the alpha's another takes it place. so the only way to stop that from happening is to get rid of all of them. I don't think that is the answer at all. I have been coyote hunting up around Lake Wabedo and have been told more than once by locals to shoot it, whether it is a coyote or wolf. There is a pretty strong dislike of wolves, especially from some of the "old timers" in that area. We have only called in a couple of wolves before, no coyotes yet, in fact we shouldn't be hunting coyotes around there anyway do to the high concentration of wolves.

not an answer, I am not sure if there is an answer

[Cooter]

Not seeing any more coyotes around my part of WI than in the past few years, I think they peaked a couple years ago and the pop growth has leveled off - sure is plenty of them. Wolves....not to bash our DNR but the 550 estimate is a joke IMO. Plus, that number is based on late winter numbers before pups are born. As an above post mentioned, there is indeed plenty of anti-wolf sentiment in this state, but I think most of the negative opinions are at the management and entire program rather than the wolves themselves.

[Scott K]

What I see is the people who live in the areas, and are in the locations of wolves dont like them around. For those people who want them around dont live in the ares where the wolves are. I dont know about you guys, but do you have young kids? Do they play outside? If so, I cant imagine you want wolves around them would you? I do have young kids (13,9,8), I dont like the wolves near them at all. Or should I just keep the kids locked up indoors so they are safe? Im not saying there shouldnt be any wolves, but I think the people that live in the areas should have alot more say then the people that live 200 miles away and wouldnt be in the wolf area anyway.

Fortunatly I dont live up there, but I do have a cabin in the north woods, and see that there are alot of wolves in the area, I havent had any close encounters with them, with the children anyway. I do see them in the fields, tracks very close to my cabin. I cant let the kids roam very far away because of wolves, and bears. But as the deer heard is thinning, it wont be long before the wolves need to find a different source of food. Pets, children, what will it be?

[verg]

I am curious as to how the states get these "estimated populations." I mean, how do they really know? How do they count wolves..you can't tell me they find most of them?

I know it is estimated but geez there could by 3 times that many or way less. Anyone know how they get their estimates?

I kind of agree with powerstroke, minn has the best wolf pop. in the lower 48. (not usa-remember alaska) And I think that encroachment is a big problem. We are moving into their home-how can we not have a few encounters. I know that there are "haters" out there-so be it. But really, say you move way up north minn in the woods. A year later your cat or dog goes missing. Can't always prove it was wolf but even if it was..how do you blame the wolf. They are born simply to survive. Its like us moving to a new foreign neighborhood and hating everyone around there. We shouldn't have moved their in the first place. Although we don't always have to like a new neighbor moving in.

I probably don't make sense.

[Scott K]

Ok, I see your theory, but what about the people that lived there for 50 years, when there wasnt much for wolves, now the city folk think they need wolves up there, so they add a bunch, now the people that lived there all there lives are being bothered with wolves. So the way I look at it is, the wolves have moved into their territory! I know way back over 100 years ago there were wolves up there, but most of the people that are living up there now werent here 100 years ago, so its new to them.

I have posted this earlier in the sconsin forum, but I have an aunt in the duluth area, been living there for 30 years, her husband died, she runs the cattle farm by herself now, the wolves take several cows a month, if its a calf, or a cow that is giving birth, if it calfs outside, its wolf meet. She is afraid to go outside in the dark due to wolves in her yard, she will call dnr, they tell her they will be out when they get a chance, when they come a week later, they say, well do you have proof its that wolf, because we cant just go killing non problem wolves. So how is this her fault that she moved to the north woods, there wasnt wolves there 30 years ago when she moved, there. She wants to move because of the wolves, I dont blame her, she looses thousands of dollars a month because of them killing her cattle, but atleast the people in the cities can say we have wolves. To bad they arent in their back yards, instead of in the peoples that live up there that dont want them!

[Nate McVey]

I spent a few days at my parents house over in Bessemer (U.P, MI) and couldn't believe the amount of coyotes and wolves! Their house is in a residential area of the town (house's on all sides is about as residential as you get there), but every night we had a pack of 20+ yotes running through the yard and down the street. I know the difference between a yote and a wolf howling and there were definitly wolves answering them back. This spring, a wolf dragged down a deer less than 500 yards from the school in a gas station parking lot in the middle of the day. I don't need to see studies and articles to know that the predator population is on the rise.

[ozzie]

When is the last time you have heard of a Wolf attack on a human???? maybe it happens but it would be on the news you would think and I don't remember ever hearing it....I think your children are safe for now!!

[Powerstroke]

In general, (I can't speak for wisconsin, but its most likely the same), population densities are done by aerial survey in the winter. Wolves will stick out against the snow. They do also factor in a percentage since they obviously know its impossible to see every one.

4wander, I know you're completely serious about being afraid of wolves and letting your kids out, but its completely unfounded. Its almost silly to be THAT worried about the wolves.

In a 2004 report it says there hasn't been a fatal wolf attack in NORTH AMERICA (includes all of Alaska and Canada) in the last 50yrs. There were 17 in Europe. I'm not saying its impossible, but you might as well keep your kids locked up cause you are more likely to die from a crash with a deer than getting attacked by a wolf.

I really can't say anything about the rancher in Duluth area. Wolves eat 4 legged animals.....cows, calves, etc. If the cows aren't in an enclosure then its gonna happen. Unless you've got a picture of a wolf, I would be more inclined to suspect a coyote.

I know you bought your place when wolves weren't there, but nature doesn't ask permission. You bought a place in the woods for a reason and you have to take the good with the bad. I can't speak about wisconsin, but in MN deer were not spread across the whole state and were not in big numbers. Only since people have made ways for the deer to flourish have they become popular. Without farming and feeding deer don't do well. One tough winter proves that.

Us "city folks" aren't the ones begging for wolves, its the animal people and the conservationists. Guess what, if us "city folks" didn't fight for more deer there wouldn't be many of those either. Spread the blame around a bit cause some of the "country folk" good 'ole boy thinking doesn't always work.

[Scott K]

I have said that there were no close encounters for the kids, yet! But what are the wolves going to eat when the deer population drops in the area? I think even one time would be to many. I want to hear from people that have the wolves in their back yards defending them. So far its only been people that dont live in the areas. I dont know where you live or if you have kids, but do you want wolves running around in your yard, when your kids are in the yard? Or how about having to walk to the barn at 4 am in the dark, when the wolves are in your yard, then tell me, that their isnt very many attacks, nothing to worry about. Are you saying that you would walk out in the dark about 100 yds , or let your kids play outside, and not worry about the wolves because there isnt very many attacks?

[Powerstroke]

I don't really know how to discuss this without it becoming a fight. This is gonna end up in the "political forum" garbage can where all the argumentative posts go. Thats what happens when people start blaming other people when there's no proof.

When I look at this dicussion I think about it in terms of density. I hunt deer in a zone where the DNR tries to maintain a deer density of ~20 deer per sq mile. That means on average, there would be 20 per 640 acres. In our area, the average harvest is 7-15 deer per sq mile. SO, that means there is 30-35 deer per sq/mi preseason. If I have a great day in the field and see 20 deer in a small 10-20 acre chunk then I've seen 1/3 to 1/2 the deer in my area. A buddy hunting down the road sees nothing but he supposedly has the same density. Since bucks have been known to range 3-5 miles during the rut then its really a crap shoot on how many deer are from my "average" and not someone elses.

My point is if you're in an area where a pack (~5-35 wolves) is living then you will see them, while someone just down the road sees none.

If you stop into the Wolf center in Ely, MN they've got great info about the resident wolves in the Ely area. There are several packs around town and have been there for many years. Researchers are able to track individual animals and their location by collaring. They have maps detailing the perimeters of pack territory etc. Its very interesting and enlightening.

Deer cause millions in damage to farmers every year and we keep trying to increase the populations. Deer cause death from car crashes and millions in insurance costs every year yet we still drive on the roads every day. How do we face that kind of risk without fear?

Its all about keeping a perspective.

[Powerstroke]

deleted by powerstroke

there was nothing worth reading here.

[Scott K]

I am not personally afraid of wolves, as long as they keep their distance. I guess what I was looking for is input from those who live with them daily, and see them daily. I dont live in the area where they are, I do visit were they are frequently. And just like every thing else the people that have negetive things to say, are the ones speaking, and them are the people that I hear things about. I live south of the metro, I dont see wolves at my house, my cabin I do. I was wondering what people that live with them think!

[Powerstroke]

I too would like to hear first hand experiences. Like I said before, I do spend a lot of time up in areas that should have wolves but I've never seen them. I'm not denying they are there. I think that they are around and a very small minority have problems with them, but in general I think most of the fears and problems expressed are by people who have never encountered one.

I see you're in Hendersen. I found a few places to hunt around there in the last couple years. Mostly for turkeys but I always try to get there once or twice with the bow for deer.

[Scott K]

ps,

it is a great place for hunting, fishing the river, we have plenty of coyotes here. Good small town life.

[Lunker]

I'm glad to see a wolf discussion not turn into a sh*t throwing contest and get deleted. It's hard to come by when the wolf is brought up.

[RBuker]

Quote:

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There has been a somewhat steady increase in predator populations, but I think the biggest reason for more sightings comes down to the loss of habitat, more people being in the woods since the population density in those areas is going up, and the concentration of their prey in the undeveloped areas.

---

You start your post with an age-old argument that just doesn't hold water.

When a housing development takes over a chunk of habitat, the animal are pushed out of it and into other areas near by. But... there's a thing called "carrying capacity." What that means is that a certain piece of land can only hold so many prey animals. A certain number of prey animals can only feed so many predators. Once this balances out (which really doesn't take very long) then the number of the predators and the number of prey are the same in the remaining areas as they were in that chunk of housing development before the habitat was "lost."

In all reality, wildlife does typically does very well around humans and their development to a point. People do nice things like plant fruit trees and tasty shrubs and gardens. This in turns draws the prey species closer to those home. What deer wouldn't rather eat peas out of my garden rather than pine needles in the woods? The bunnies do very well too. This in turn draws the predators closer to the homes. We also have a habit of keeping small, juicy pets at or near our homes. Coyotes love kitties and wiener dogs! So, yes, they are being seen more. But, the bottom line is that we see them because we inadvertantly draw them to us, not because we are taking their habitat and forcing them to live by us.

[Powerstroke]

I think we agree on the same concept. By planting tasty shrubs and flowers, we didn't reduce the area which the animals can live in. The prey animals continue to live in the developments because they can still get food and water and shelter in those areas. Yes the predators are drawn in closer.

Would the predators be seen and complained about if no one was living on that chunk of land? Of course not. SO, the reason we are seeing more and there are more complaints is because we are moving farther out into their habitat. They continue to live there, but now that people moved in they want someone to get rid of the wolves and coyotes, but try to leave the deer, rabbits and anything else fuzzy that doesn't inspire fear for no good reason.

[Scott K]

I understand the logic behind what you are saying, but if you back up 10-15 years ago, there were a fraction of coyotes and wolves that there is now. So we are seeing alot more because there are alot more, plus what you guys said.

[Powerstroke]

I do agree that there are more animals, I guess my point there was more about the number of complaints. Even though the populations have been growing steadily, people don't notice unless they "see" more animals or complaints make the news.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Congratulations to all that have kept this post civil!!!

Powerstroke, your takes are right on!

Wandereyes, I would like to answer to your ? you asked in a couple of posts.

"But what are the wolves going to eat when the deer population drops in the area? "

I would think that once the wolves take down the prey population in the specific area, the wolves will follow and migrate with the prey. After all, thats what a wolf needs to survive, food. I have witnessed these events first hand in the woods I hunt north of Two Harbors.

I honestly don't think that a wolf is going to linger around your property waiting to stalk your kids. However, one can never be too carefull. There is always a rouge animal out there. But I think odds are about the same as getting hit by lightning.

I wonder if it's considered harrassment to say, light off some bottle rockets over a pack off wolves that are a little too close for comfort. I know thats how they control problem bears in some areas. Maybe look into that. Scare them away a few times and their likely to not return again.

Lets hope that one day man and wolf can "get along". I agree there needs to be a little bit of control out there, mainly to keep them moving, to remind them we are around and not friend or food.

Keep up the civil discussion!